In episode 89 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Miguel Guadalupe discuss
issues of generational engagement in leadership, highlighting the frequent oversight of Generation X and stressing the unique adaptability and valuable perspective that this generation brings to the table. Miguel emphasizes the necessity for Generation X to advocate for recognition in leadership roles, reflecting on a LinkedIn post that sparked a broader conversation about the career stagnation felt by many in his generation. Episode highlights: Don’t Forget GenX: underrepresentation and unique contributions of Generation X in leadership and decision-making processes. Adapting to change: how Generation X's experience with the evolution of technology equips and other big changes over their career equips them with adaptability, a valuable skill set for leadership. Perpetual Utility player: Many of the Gen Xers who commented on Miguel’s LinkedIn post shared the feeling of being overlooked in their professional lives. Visibility and Advocacy: Miguel suggests that Generation X should take a lesson from Millenials and Gen Z and take a more assertive stance in advocating for their visibility and leadership opportunities. Guest Bio: Miguel Guadalupe is Vice President of Donor and Community Relations at The Bowery Residents' Committee, or BRC in NYC. BRC helps over 10,000 individuals a year suffering from homelessness, mental illness, and addiction with the dignity and compassion they deserve. Miguel manages donor engagement, fundraising, and event planning, as well on service as BRC liaison to local elected officials, community organizations and businesses wherever a BRC program is located. He is also Vice Chair of the National Puerto Rican Day Parade, and helps to produce America's largest cultural celebration, in NYC, while helping to raise and distribute over $200K annually to students attending higher education. Important Links and Resources: Miguel’s viral LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7036817928465350656?updateEntityUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_feedUpdate%3A%28V2%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7036817928465350656%29 Miguel Guadalupe on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miguelguadalupe/ The Bowery Residents' Committee https://www.brc.org/ Transcript: Carol Hamilton: Welcome Miguel. Welcome to Mission Impact. Miguel Guadalupe: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Carol: I'd like to start out each conversation with what, what drew you to the work that you do? What motivates you and what would you describe as your why? Miguel: I work for the Bowery Residents' Committee, Inc or, or BRC. We're a major nonprofit social services provider in the New York City area. And what we do is we help those suffering from homelessness mental illness and addiction in, in the city. We have about 35 programs where we run the gamut from homeless outreach to addiction services and workforce training shelters, safe havens, permanent housing, transitional housing, the likes, all the way to permanent. Affordable housing, which we're actually constructing and building for for formerly homeless as well as low income providers. And I guess what motivates me in terms of this work is, I've, I grew up in, in the city, I've seen, from the seventies , and I've seen its highs, I've seen its lows. My family has been in the city for generations and I've seen how sometimes the institutions fail the community. I've seen folks who have been homeless. I've seen folks who have been lost to addiction. And while the beginning of my career was mostly in the corporate world, in finance and, and technology and consulting, I always had an affinity toward trying to figure out how I could potentially give back to those who nobody looks after, who nobody cares really about people, people who other people just wanna disappear, if you will. And I got an opportunity at BRC. To sort of merge my skill sets in terms of relationship management and marketing and sales and stuff like that into helping provide the development work, helping the organization help others. Helping to fund our programs, helping to do the needful in terms of innovating and trying to solve the real problems that is homelessness because homelessness is the symptom. It's not the actual disease. The disease is a series of failures from our systems, from our institutions that allow people to fall through the cracks. And that's what BRC is trying to help is, to uplift and lift those people up and provide them with the hope and dignity and empathy that they deserve as they try to put their lives back together. Carol: That's awesome. Thank you. I relate with being kind of several layers away from the direct work of folks in the consulting that I do, but we connected actually through LinkedIn and you posted about an experience that you had had on a panel where you'd been invited to. A panel discussing millennial recruitment onto boards of nonprofits and your post that went viral by LinkedIn standards. You pointed out that the conversations about generations and engagement, whether on boards or in leadership development more generally, often leaves out Generation X and as a fellow Generation Xer, your post definitely caught my eyes, so I'm curious if you could tell me just a little bit more about the panel that, that originally sparked the post. Miguel: I was at a conference and I was actually speaking at a panel. And the panel had originally started with the topic of a sort of generational engagement. I was all about that because part of my job is in donor relations, managing different donor boards which include what others would call junior board. We call it a leadership council. And that board, I manage, and that is mid beginning to mid-tier level career professionals which include multiple generations. And I also manage a couple of other donor cohorts. One that's a little more senior, and then there's our team cohort, which includes folks who run the marathons for us and stuff like that. So, I manage a couple of these donor cohorts and they are very diverse in terms of generations. Recent graduates all the way up to mid-career professionals, et cetera. And so I have a lot of experience with that. My initial intention was to be part of that panel to discuss how we engage all these different engagements and as panels do they often evolve. And then it evolved into millennial recruitment and engagement and et cetera. This was the second time that this had happened with this particular panel, because I think the idea was that more people would be interested in this topic than just plain generational involvement. So, rather than say Just my personality rather than be like, okay, great, I was like, well, no, I, I came here to talk about multiple generations and so that's what I'm gonna do. I made the point to point out that when we talk about generational engagement, we always seem to leave out Generation X. We talk about the boomers, we talk about the leadership. We talk in terms of, what are they doing now? Where will they be going next? What vacuum will be left? How do we fill that vacuum? We talk about that a lot. And then we talk about emerging leadership, and we talk about young leaders. We talk about youth to many people who are in their thirties and under. But there's millions of people that fall in between those two. And, we are very much present and we're very much involved. But it doesn't seem that, that anyone seems to want to speak specifically to that generation X, gen X, and, and there's all these jokes about how we're used to it. We're the latchkey kids. We know how to do our peanut butter jelly sandwiches and our Chef Boyardee for lunch. I get that. But I think it's important because when you're absent from the conversation, decisions are made without you. And when decisions are made without you, then you don't have the input and those decisions affect you. So if decisions in leadership, whether the next C level or the next VP or the next director is being decided in a room where Generation X is not being considered as the future. Then guess what? Then they won't be part of that future. And so you'll have an entire generation of people who are kind of stuck in middle management. And who don't move forward and just see people sort of leapfrog them into places of leadership. And I just wanted to make a point to say that there's a lot of skill in this generation, that there's a lot of energy and youthful, quite unquote, youthful energy in this generation still. that we have a particular Skill Set because we've always straddled these two eras of sort of pre and post whatever, pre and post y2k, pre and post computers, pre and post emails, pre and post like the technology elevation that has been exponentially faster. In terms of iterations over the years, we remember before it, and we have been riding this wave consistently through it. I don't know a Gen X or who doesn't remember having to start learning a particular technology as opposed to just simply uploading the latest version. That's a skillset that that many of us have and, and that I think is, is important for companies to understand as a benefit, as an asset as opposed to something to, to just kind of ignore or take for granted. Carol: I really appreciated that, the perspective of the particular skills and perspective also that having gone through that shift. I literally remember going to college with a typewriter. And then after a semester, someone in my class said, have you been to the computer lab and taken me there? The typewriter got put in the closet and eventually went home, but I never looked at it again. I remember the day that somebody called me into their office and said, there's this new thing called the Worldwide Web. Have you seen it? Let me show you a webpage. , and all of those things. So we do have those memories and, and have experience, . As you said, having to learn each of these things as they come. I was thinking about as you were talking, I was thinking about when the pandemic started and, everything shut down and. Folks who do the kind of work that I do. We're used to doing everything in a room with people facilitating , analog, using post-it notes and flip charts and all of that and, and markers. And I love all of those. I've got stacks of them in my office. But , having kind of always jumped into new technologies, I was able to help people out to say, you can do this online too. And you, there are lots of tools that are built to kind of replicate that kind of experience in the room and teach people how to do that. So that ability and it was an interesting combination of boomers and, and millennials who were in those classes that I was teaching. But it was, it was fun to kind of be in the middle. What are some of the other skills and talents that you think that Gen X particularly brings to leadership at this point? Carol: Well, thank you Miguel, for bearing with us our technical difficulties and coming back onto the podcast to continue the conversation. I appreciate it. So what do you feel like is lost when conversations jp from boomers to millennials and Gen Z forgetting Gen X? Miguel: I think the biggest thing that's lost is the ability to talk about transition, ? So everything is in a constant state of transition, and that's not a bad thing. What I believe Gen X brings to the table. Is that we grew up in transition. We grew up through multiple iterations of various different technologies. We know, and, when we were going to school, when we weren't going to college, when we were going to grad school, when we were starting our careers, this time in our lives was constantly full of transition. So, if anything, we are best at adjusting to new things. And that's, and that's a unique status, I believe because the generation above us, had their certain technologies were relatively status quo until we came about. And I believe the younger generations. While they have newer iterations of these technologies, they're not brand new technologies, they're just better, faster, quicker, et cetera. ? So we were the ones who most had to adjust our work models, our, our, our ways of interacting, our, our ways of doing business in fundamental ways that the previous generation did not have to experience and that the younger generations now already take for granted. And when you have that skill set, when you, when you are used to those things, you can take a business, you can take a board, you can take a nonprofit, and really handle what for the last X amount of years have been. Nonstop transitional periods. and what I feel is, is that we're in another wave of transition, not necessarily in terms of technology, but definitely in terms of how we're interacting and how we're modeling ourselves and how we're modeling work and how we're modeling, the environment and society. And Gen X is best equipped to handle these types of transitions because we're not very possessive of the way things used to be because we know the way things used to be will eventually change and we're not sort of, and we're also sort of, not also, easily impressed with the new new. . So, we'll take something that's coming through the pipe and we'll rest on it. We'll take a look at it, we'll make sure that it's feasible. We'll make sure that it's something that is, that can be taken to scale, et cetera, because we understand that for every new technology, for every new way of doing things that, there's a hundred other things that failed or that turned obsolete within a few years. so, so we're, we're very much used to that. And I think what's lost is when you skip from boomers to millennials, is that perspective, And I think you see it sometimes when you're, when you're, when, when folks rush from going from 70 year olds, 60 year olds to 30 year olds, is you lose that perspective. You, you lose that balance that I believe Gen X brings to the table. Carol: I really appreciate that perspective of having had to learn, Many of these technologies along the way and going through multiple iterations of transitions. and certainly boomers have had to do that too, but it, but in a different way and at a different stage in their career. So I think, shifting from analog, to computers and digital, and I, at first, at least for me, and I think I'm at the very. First year that they even labeled Gen X. I literally made that transition in college. Then, bringing the typewriter and then finding the computer, the computer lab and starting to use it. And then, being able to remember when you had to, use DOS, moving to the more visual, the WYSIWYG, set up and graphic, all of those transitions. And I think the big difference that I see just from a technology point of view, Is kind of the ease of like, I'll jump in and just play with stuff. I'm not afraid of it. and others who are a little bit older, wanna read the manual, wanna know all the, and are afraid of breaking things, which I've never been afraid of. But I love that. I love that perspective of the number of transitions that we've had to go through and, and the adaptability that we've learned along the way. And, and, and change is only happening faster. and so that adaptability and that perspective of being able to manage and work through those rapid changes is really a gift. That I, that I think is a great point that you make that our generation brings to leadership. Are there other gifts that you would say are unique, in our kind of generational cohort that we bring to leadership? Miguel: When you look at how we interact with each other, I think there's a, there's definitely a different vibe. I think, we, we, gen Xers tend to look for commonality where we can, where we can sort of, Bring in our cohorts and, and I guess society has a, it's different for different people, but for the most part, my experience has been that, I find Gen Xers to want to find things that we have in common. What, where can we bond? Where can we, even if we come from two different places, come from different upbringings, let's find something where we can agree. and as a, I feel like the idea of silos, of niche, groups of, us and them. It is a relatively new way of approaching society. I think Gen Xers are naturally uncomfortable with that. and they push back a lot. Sometimes it comes across as being intransigent in terms of the new ways. But I also feel like some of it comes from a society of, Hey listen, we get that everybody's different. Well, we're all trying to find how we can get along. We're all trying to find where we agree and that's, there's some value in that, whereas looking for differences, for differences sake , tends to be unproductive. in the grander scheme of things. And, I find Gen Xers when we joke, especially when we joke around. New language and new stuff like that. Some of it is a little, depending on who you are and there's definitely folks that take it too far, but I, I do feel like the, it's, it's an inherent pushback to, continued divisiveness among when we can be working together towards solving some real issues and some real problems. Carol: Yeah, I think for any, any group, any, trying to find those commonalities and those that have common ground, and, and where we agree , that can be a real, a real gift. You prompted quite the conversation on your, on your LinkedIn page with the prompt that you made, or the post that, that you, that you put up. And I'm curious if there's some things that you took away from the conversation that was generated from it. Miguel: Yeah, I mean, I found it was interesting to know. That a lot of people felt that they were alone. and that the conversation sparked a lot of people to really understand that the way they felt of where their career was or whether they were feeling overlooked or whether they were feeling like, they were not being, like, like their best self wasn't being brought out by their company or their organization was not unique. That to me was surprising. I, a lot of people were, were, were giving, I guess, testimonials, to just kind of feeling stuck and, stuck in mental management, stuck in feeling overlooked in terms of raises, in terms of promotions, in terms of simply attention, where they were, labeled as a, a utility player, but not someone who could potentially lead. There was this wrong way of looking at things that youth, that chase for youthful engagement, somehow skipped this generation. There's a lot of youth, there's a lot of vigor, there's a lot of energy coming out of Gen X. And , to not tap into that is, is, to the company, the organization's, detriment. Because the network that's been built, the expertise that's been built, the gravitas that's been built by Gen Xers, is something that every company should be looking for first before they start thinking about, what, what the next step is gonna be. So, my biggest surprise was how many people said, wow, that's incredible. I've been feeling this in my career, in my organization, and it's comforting to know that I'm not alone. Carol: Yeah, that struck me as well. The number of people who said, they kind of felt like they've been overlooked. And it made me think of an experience that I had, a while back, probably 10 years ago now, with a boss, who was a baby boomer and he was kind of musing of like, well, where's the next generation of leadership gonna come from? And I just don't see the pipeline. And I'm like, I am standing in front of you having this conversation with you. Like apparently you can't see me. Miguel: That feeling of invisibleness is, if it was definitely, of being invisible was definitely something that, that came out a lot. What's interesting though, Is that Gen Xers, at least the ones who were talking, you know, their immediate response was, yeah, but we're used to it. ? And that's to our detriment. Like to be so accepting of that role is not something that we should be doing. Like two millennials credit and to Gen Z's credit, they are not. Just laying down, and accepting the status quo. They're, there's, they're screaming bloody murder and they're saying, it's my turn. ? And perhaps what Gen X needs to do is learn from them and, and, and, maybe, maybe not say it in the same way, but also be better advocates for themselves, into, I think that that's, that's something to be said, a about that. Carol: You were talking about, we might take a page from the millennials and Gen Z, and, and get out from, not be just the understudy. Miguel: Just advocate for ourselves like we. Yeah. Not be on the, not under study, be, Yeah. A lot of us are like, okay, well, I can be the utility player and as long as it continues to give me a job, I'm okay. And, and I think millennials and, and Gen Zers are like, I'm not satisfied with just having a job. I wanna be the leader. I wanna be the manager. I wanna be the CEO, I wanna be the CFO. And maybe they're not, I mean, of course there's a bell curve, but maybe they're not ready, but at least they want it and they're showing that they're hungry. And I think Gen Xers can, can, can take a play, can take a page from that playbook and show that they're hungry too. In episode 85 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Mala Nagarajan discuss organizational development, compensation structures, and critical discussions within nonprofit organizations. They explore the limitations of market-based compensation, the concept of a thriving wage, and the importance of aligning organizational values with employee compensation. Mala emphasizes the need for transparent and comprehensive approaches to compensation, touching on various factors such as areas of responsibility, risk assessment, and the significance of understanding one's relationship with money. In addition they explore how to integrate compensating for the emotional labor required in a role. They discuss the complexities of legal considerations and highlight the need for organizations to reevaluate traditional practices to foster a more equitable and holistic work environment. Highlights: 02:27: Creating equitable compensation models for organizations 04:50: Principles underpinning the work 08:16: The importance of interdependence 13:08- Transparency in compensation 16:21 Emotional labor and compensation 26:00 - Recognizing individual strengths and aligning them with organizational roles beyond just financial incentives 32:00 - Biases and values embedded in market-based compensation structures 37:00 - Implementing a thriving wage, distinct from a living wage 45:00 - The "conditions for readiness" necessary for successful implementation 53:00 - Assessing risk tolerance Guest Bio: Mala Nagarajan is a senior HR consultant who works with nonprofit organizations rooted in racial and social justice values. She is driven by a vision of strong organizations working collaboratively toward a common purpose and approaches her HR work with a values-aligned, people-centered, and movement-oriented lens. Mala is a consultant with RoadMap, a national network of consultants who work with social justice organizations. She helped organize RoadMap’s HR/RJ (racial justice) working group. Mala has developed an innovative Compensation Equity Process and Calculator™ that reverse-engineers supremacy out and re-engineers equity in. It’s an evolving approach accompanied with a custom tool that organizations can use to shift from a market-based to an anti-racist compensation model that centers those living at the intersections of multiple marginalized communities. Important Links and Resources: Mala Nagarajan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/malanagarajan/ Vega Mala Consulting | www.vegamala.com Marilyn Waring TED talk on what the GDP misses -- https://www.tedxchristchurch.com/marilyn-waring Polarities: https://www.polaritypartnerships.com/ The MIT Living Wage Calculator: https://livingwage.mit.edu/ Hidden Brain episodes on budgets: https://hiddenbrain.org/podcast/money-2-0-why-we-bust-our-budgets/ Learn more about Mala’s compensation work here: Fund the People: Compensation Philosophy, NPQ-Compensation Equity: A Values-Based Framework & Implementation Guide, Top Tips to Stop Widening the Wealth Gap, Why Radical Human Resources is Critical for Movement Organizations, Equitable Compensation is a Risk Worth Taking, Brave Questions: Recalculating Pay Equity, Don't Put Metal in the Microwave and other Compensation Myths, Transforming the Workplace: HR Innovations, Pay Scale Equity Process and Calculator. HR resources: RoadMap Consulting: Human Resources and Justice: Addressing Racism and Sexism in the Workplace. Washington Nonprofits: Workers in Nonprofits. The Management Center: Making Compensation More Equitable. Transcript: Carol Hamilton: Well, welcome Mala. Welcome to Mission: Impact. Mala Nagarajan: Thank you. Thanks for inviting me. Carol: I always like to start each conversation with just asking each guest, what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you? Or what, how would you describe your why? Mala: I think I've been drawn to HR since my first job, or at least improving the workplace. I can remember getting involved in for my first job in how to make the workplace more amenable for everybody and welcoming and, then I think that another piece that's been a driving force in my why is my mom, who never held a paid W two job, but was often was a volunteer at a local library. And the immense confidence it gave her to be able to do some work and put books in alphabetical order, or she'd come to one of my jobs and help Scan or copy newspapers and just people feeling valuable and valued in the workplace and how meaningful it is just is so core. If it just feels like we get so much meaning out of what we're doing, what we're, how we're able to support others. Carol: One of the things that you do, I think probably the main thing that you do is help organizations create more equitable compensation models for their staff. And that's really the most tangible way in a lot of ways that organizations value people. So it goes to that core that you're talking about. What would you say are some of the principles that undergird that work? Mala: I think that some of the principles that undergird the specific framework and model that I'm working on starts with being values-based. I'm trying to create a structure, a compensation structure that is relational. Typically in the for-profit, capitalist structure our pay is very individualistic. We negotiate and we don't know anybody else's pay. I'm trying to adopt as a more relational one we're with nonprofits, they only have a certain amount of budget. They may be able to grow their budget, they may not be able to, but how do we have our compensation be in relationship to each other so that it's not so that there's equity? It doesn't have to be the same, but people wanna have some transparency in what our salary looks like. It also tries to, the structure or the framework that I use tries to embody interdependence and the interdependence of our work itself. It's very customizable and organizations can customize what they're valuing specifically based on the type of work that they're doing, the communities that they're serving. And really link the communities and the impact they're trying to have all the way to their staff. So how do you really value the types of ways that staff are connected with the communities that you're serving? Carol: You talk about it being relational. Can you give me an example of what that might look like? Mala:. My work in this aspect really draws from some work that my colleagues at the Roadmap social justice consulting network created. And this is like my Lisa Weer, Margie Clark, Rita Sever, Bridgette Rouson. Margie in particular had created a wage survey that was a collaboration between Roadmap, the National Organizers Alliance and the Data Center. And they surveyed over 215 social justice nonprofits. And what they found was that there was a relationship between the lowest and the highest paid person in the organization. When you keep those in relationship, there's something about the highest salary can't go up until the lowest also goes up. And when you're in that type of relationship, whatever you're doing to your salary is also benefiting other people. The typical, typical ratio between the lowest salary and the highest salary was somewhere around 2.2 to three times where the highest salary was two to three times the lowest salary. There's other ways that it can be relational. I know one of the clients that I work with. If somebody does negotiate a higher salary, they apply that negotiation to everybody at the same level. So it really shows that we're all, we're impacting each other, not just ourselves. Carol: So I guess that that goes to that interdependence that you were talking about, and you also used the word transparency, which I feel like people use all the time and about all the things. Can you say a little bit more about what that might look like in an instance like this? Mala:. I talk about transparency in that most organizations just have a number that is the salary or, or a range that is a salary for a particular job class or type of position. And what I talk about is -- we don't really know what goes into that number and taking it apart, reverse engineering, that whole number and kind of. Taking it apart, looking at the pieces that are going into potential pieces, potential compensation factors, and say of these factors, what are the ones that are really meaningful to us that we really wanna recognize and lift up? How do we look at it from an equity lens? Which of these factors are embedded in them inequity. For example, I think education is a good example. Education is not accessible for everyone. And if someone can do the job without a particular level of education, why put that level of education as a barrier? That's probably one of the most common ones that people cite. But then we, we let organizations really identify what are the ones that are, what are the compensation factors that are values aligned, and then let's re-engineer that into the salary so people know what it's made up of. So at the very least, it's about we know what's in the salary, we know what makes it, makes up. We know what makes up the salary. Second, we know what the process is to do for the different aspects of compensation and, in very clear or transparent organizations, everybody's salary is known. I Carol: One of the things that struck me when I was reading about the framework that you work with was, those compensation factors that you're talking about. Some of the ones were, I think a lot of folks who work, do this work are familiar with in terms of, what are the skills that are needed, what are the competencies, what's the education as you were talking about, but you were also in, in the description recognizing other kinds of labor such as, physical labor, people might already recognize that, but, more in terms of emotional labor. And I don't think that's typically been valued, recognized and certainly not compensated for, in many ways. How, just at first, how do you define emotional labor? Mala:. That's a great question and it's really sticky for a lot of people 'cause it's like, how do you define it as just, people being emotional or allowing emotion to be part of our workspace so that we're actually more whole. It's not just logical and rational, but also emotional. We draw from the definition of the sociological definition of emotional labor, so labor that the position itself requires where the circumstances that the position a position is required to be in may bring up emotions that the person in the position needs to put aside and respond in a different way. This could be care work, it could be, it's often associated with customer service, but it could be care work where people are like dealing with logistics for a conference and they're basically serving people to make sure they can get and enjoy the conference in the fullest manner that they can. It could be folks who are dealing with crises. I think the typical example given in the sociology books is a police officer dealing with a crisis, but it really, in a nonprofit organization, can be the vicarious trauma that people are dealing with as they're directly serving the community with crisis management. Or if they're working on direct action, and they're on the streets and they're having to deal with police. Or they're having to deal with opposition. Folks in, the mix making sure that everybody's safe, There's lots of different ways that one's emotions in the position based on the role that you have to serve. Might elicit other emotions and stress and stuff like that, but that part of your job is actually to manage that. Carol: It is interesting that your very first example is just dealing with the logistics of a conference, which is a situation I've been in a lot of times and I don't know that I ever thought of it as care work. I thought when I heard that care work, I thought of the people taking care of my disabled brother, the people who took care of my dad as his health was failing before he died, and childcare. Those are the kinds of things that I'm thinking about. But when you put it in that frame, there's like, there's so much more that is actually care work. Can you gimme other examples of what that might be? Mala:. There's one of the organizations I worked with. They were the ones who actually defined this logistical role as care work because they really expect that person in that logistical role to make it, it the smoothest experience for the participant as possible. 'cause they're dealing with member organizations. Another way that they redefined or, or, or split that apart is actually emotional labor. They also created one that was around conflict management. Your relationship to conflict. And because they're working with lots of grassroots organizations, all their, all the people on staff at default, they have to be able to recognize when there's conflict between member organizations or our member representatives, or so they need to be able to recognize and be aware of that conflict. They may not be the ones to do it. To address it, but they have to flag it and, and run it up to the next person. And then the other next person assesses the conflict to see what, what level of conflict is it. And they had different levels of people addressing conflict. The very highest level was someone who was helping mediate the. Emotional density of the conflict itself and actually being a mediator, negotiator supporting both or many parties to come to resolution and. What a great way to recognize the labor that people are doing and also see it across the organization, across all the different positions. And at the very least, one of the things that we include in our framework is a level zero, which is everybody's responsibility in every single area of responsibility that's or compensation factor that's identified. There's a Level zero, which is basically What are the basics that are required by everybody? For conflict resolution, it's knowing what my own conflict style is or the tendency that I have. It's knowing what are the things that trigger me. It is knowing how to, what different kinds of conflict there are. Like recognizing that disagreement does not equal abuse. And, and, conflict does not equal abuse. Like actually recognizing that different manifestations that sometimes get confused as conflict but are different things. Carol: You talked about it being values aligned, relational, transparent, and interdependent. Are there other principles that go into the framework? Mala: I wanna expand on the interdependent 'cause I feel like that's super important. We don't recognize how our work is interdependent. And this model tries to again, embody that. Let's say communications is an area of responsibility that the organization wants to recognize as a function, the functional aspect of communications. You can have program folks and fundraising folks all have scores and communication because the program folks are feeding the information to communications so that, and Crafting the story. Like really bringing the stories from the community that the communications folks will be then disseminating. The fundraising folks need to also intersect with the communications function of the organization to make sure that the fundraising aspects of the communication are identified and that there's opportunity put in. So we're really looking at how are people collaborating with each other or working together to actually see some aspect forward, and really understanding how the different components different people in different positions are interacting with communications or if you're a program person or you're a front desk person and someone comes into the office and you wanna make sure that they're in the database in the CRM, so that communications folks and fundraising folks can have access to that data, that's part of your contribution. So those are ways that we're really putting it into the compensation system rather than just isolating it in a job description as one person's task to do. Carol: Well, and it's funny 'cause I feel like so often organizations are complaining about or struggling with feeling siloed. And so it sounds like through that process you're actually mapping a lot of the interdependence that they may not even be recognizing is there and the collaboration that is happening and making it visible in a way that might not have been. Mala: It's a pretty beautiful process when people are seeing it and, and I think it really helps people step up and own their work. Carol: Can you describe the process that you walk organizations through? Mala: That's a really good question. We've been in constant Development of our process .So in the beginning, about three or four years ago, it was just me and the person who had the HR function. And what I was proposing was just an HR intervention. Mala: We didn't really have staff involved. It wasn't like a collective process. It was like, okay, let's map out how work is happening and what might be just to get folks started and the basic structure of the compensation or the basic components of this compensation structure are, there's a base salary, and the base salary is not position oriented. The base salary is actually everyone from the ED to the entry level person getting the exact same base salary. And then from that, the areas of responsibility that you're holding will get added to that base. and so we started that with the very first organization that we were working with. But over time in the last two years, we've really shifted to a more organizational change process. What we noticed even though there was a good response to the compensation structure when staff were engaging with it. There was still a sense of people moving in the system individually. How do I get to the next highest level pay versus what's my best strength or what are my dependable strengths? What are the things that I want to increase my level of competency in? And how does that map in the system and how can I move both if I have, I might have financial goals and monetary goals, and that's great. But it's not just about that. It's also about what are you strong at and how can the organization and you be in alignment so that you're able to use your aptitudes and your strengths and not just have to become a supervisor in order to get more money. Because we know not everybody is made out to be a supervisor, Carol: Very few people are made out to be of. Mala:. And, we know, from the Gallup poll, your manager is the most important person in your workspace and contributes to your employee engagement. Let's not put someone who's not really doesn't have that skill set in that position just so that they can get a raise. Carol: Or doesn't wanna develop it. doesn't have the interest in developing it. 'cause certainly there's a huge challenge with having people access management training in the sector. Mala: Now we're doing more of an organizational change process and we're continuing to develop that. I think we're getting a little bit more nuanced about it. One of the things I'm looking forward to this next year is really helping people to get to those Critical discussions that we never have in the workplace. My colleague Rochelle Faithful is going to be completing a discussion guide for organizations where they can really interface based on this process that we use, and then have critical discussions about. Do we wanna follow the market? Do we want to compete with the market or do we want to make sure our internal salaries are equitable in relationship to each other? And it's not an either or question. 'cause we actually need to do both. Carol: What are some other examples of those critical conversations that organizations need to have? Mala:. Am I working for money? Oh. Am I, is it, is it a work to, am I working to live or living to work? Right? Like, what are the individual values that we're coming into the workplace with, and what are the values of the organization that are different from ours? And how do we actually navigate? Different people's value systems within a workplace. So I, I think the easiest example of this also is, what does a workplace mean to us is so different based on generational differences and how, what events and our. Our lifetime has affected attitudes around work, right? And so we're really encouraging folks to come up with an employer philosophy that sets down where we wanna walk the line in terms of our workplace. And so you might come from a different generation or a different culture where work means something different. And this is how we're bringing people together around work. And what it means to be an employee in this organization. Carol: I feel like that question is definitely very alive right now. Been having conversations with lots of different people about them renegotiating their relationship to work and what it means in their life and and there's so many cultural assumptions that come with that. Certainly the ones that I inherited were: Work is very central to your life. I'm trying to disentangle a little bit from that. But I, I love the idea of as an organization being really clear about, and not just having it be, -- we're adopting these cultural assumptions about what it means to be a quote, good employee or to show up well here in this space. Can you say a little bit more? I think most organizations are used to if they, if they do any work around compensation, think about it from a market-based point of view, what are some pitfalls that are embedded in that standard approach? Mala: I think one of my collaborators Sharon Davis just introduced me recently to Marilyn Warring's work. She's a New Zealander used to be a New Zealand parliamentarian and some work of hers in, in the seventies. She really talked about how the GDP is not a good example of productivity because it is only looking at growth on growth, which we cannot sustain. I think it was Donna Meadows who talks about systems, systems dynamics and like you. But there's limits to growth, right? Like meaning that the market is constantly looking to grow. And, it's constantly embedded in the market system, our values. So why is it that domestic workers and janitors and non-unionized farmers, agriculture, why are those professions valued less? Why is it that managers are valued more than the people that work under them? Is that an assumption? We want to adopt without question or do we wanna actually question it and say what is the importance of different people's work and how do we actually lift up unseen and undervalued work in the marketplace? And how do we, typically it's women's work and people of color's work, black, indigenous healing, the different ways that we can come into the workplace, the different ways we have access to knowledge and in our culture, the dominant way of knowing something is this like a logical scientific method. And there are lots of different ways of knowing and how do we actually learn from each other and bring that to the best of our ability to help the nonprofit organization to execute its mission. Carol: You said before that it's not an either or, so it's not entirely throwing out the market-based construct, but it's looking at it and saying -- there are definitely values embedded in this. It's not neutral, The rhetoric is that it is neutral. like algorithms are neutral. No, they're not. They're all built by people, I feel like the pandemic, I mean with who are the essential workers? Well, the people who are paid the least, who are least valued. And I, my most cynical self often thinks, my goodness, we value in terms of money that people who do the most harm in the world. I mean like the people who do good on a daily basis don't get paid much. And the people who are wrecking things get paid a lot. Mala: It's so true. That's so true. It feels like nonprofits, if any organization or any sector is gonna change those kinds of default value systems. It's the nonprofit sector or benefit corps or organizations with a more of a stakeholder approach rather than a shareholder approach. Carol: And of course as you said at the beginning, nonprofits, or, well, any organization is constrained by budget, but particularly social justice nonprofits are constrained and so they may have aspirations that they can't fully. Live out because of those, those funding constraints and, and just the money that's coming in revenue. What are some of the other critical, it's very hard to balance it all. But I'm really appreciating that people are taking a stab at it in a way that I don't think was true when I first started where it was all about what was outside, what was the mission, and very little attention to what was inside the organization. That disconnect between. Our mission for creating this change, empowering women in the workplace. I literally worked at an organization whose mission was to empower women in the workplace and they would hire women in order to pay them as little as possible. it's like this little bit of a disconnect there. Mala: exactly. Exactly. If nothing else, we have to get the mission aligned pieces. We have to be able to accomplish them inside of our organizations if we have any expectation of accomplishing them outside. If we can't do it internally in our organizations, what evidence can we bring to, to say that this is possible, Carol: What are some of the other critical conversations that organizations need to have? You talked about having a shared understanding of what it means to be an employee here and how we're approaching work. Mala: One of the things that there's a whole bunch of what we call polarities that are happening in the workplace. An example is, oh, we had this great conversation about geolocation as a compensation factor. Do you adjust the salary for where people live? And so there's two aspects and like for some people it's like, no, you don't adjust it because people, that's somebody's personal choice where they live. And then for other folks it's like, well, we can't hire people in particular, we can't hire the best employee. They happen to be from San Francisco, so we need to pay them at the market level. That San Francisco salaries are at compensation are at. So those are kinds of questions like, where are the boundaries? Where are the and there's actually upsides to doing either one, right? Paying at the market level based on the geography, or not paying. And there's also downsides for both. So how do we actually, as an organization, come to a more collective understanding and perspective of where those lines are? Where do we cross the value line and start moving from where we're seeing the upsides of one direction, and then we're going into the downsides because we've, we've overvalued it to the neglect of this other perspective. Polarity Partnerships is a great resource for that. Barry Johnson is the one who created the polarity mapping. It's a great tool to have those conversations. Carol: I love working with polarities because I feel like oftentimes, so often people can really get caught up in advocating for one side or the other, I mean like a classic one is in the sector, is that we should be working at the systemic level. We've gotta solve these big systemic issues. Just working one-on-one is not enough, yes, you can help each person individually, but the system's still there. It's not either or, it's both. We've gotta be working at both levels. Maybe not everybody is working at both levels. But people definitely get caught up in those. Yes, we gotta do it. Market, yes, we gotta do it. Geography or no. but what is that method of looking at what are the values, but what are the benefits of each side? And then what are the pitfalls? And then trying to maximize the benefit on both sides and be mindful of the pitfalls. But so often in cultures. The classic one that people are talking about and you're talking about right in, in this model is. The US culture and western culture has tended to be so over-indexed on individualism that the relational piece is missing. And so how do we, and it's not that we completely go to the other side. Mala: Nope. Carol: It's that we, how do we find some balance between the two, which is always the most challenging, Mala: Always the most challenging, always the most challenging. And one of the things that comes back to the question of the process that we use, one of the last things we build out for organizations is a calculator that actually allows people to do some what if scenarios. We're encouraging people to pay people a thriving wage rather than just a minimum wage or a living wage. And so like how do you, you actually test that with your budget? We give a calculator where you can set your base number and set your different compensation factors, how much money you're giving to each factor. And that allows based on the way that we are doing our system with the levels and stuff, to try different forms, try different amounts to get within the budget that you have. And if you can't hit a thriving wage for everyone this go around. We're encouraging organizations not to lift the ceiling until they bring people up to a thriving wage. Carol: Can you describe what's the difference between a living wage and a thriving wage? Mala: I use the MIT living wage calculator as a base. There's other cost of living calculators, but the MIT living wage calculator is an alternative to poverty wage. It's saying, how much do you have to actually earn to live in this place? But they're only looking at the necessities. if you're targeting your pay level. To what one individual no children are at in the MIT calculator. For a given geography, you're actually only getting them the bare necessities. And so if there's one car accident, one car repair or some major medical issue that is gonna put your employee in An avalanche of financial strain and thriving wages. We're using, I think it comes from Elizabeth Warren, but there's a 50, 30, 20% budgeting rule. And the budgeting rule is 50% towards your necessities. 30% towards your just discretionary needs, and then 20% towards savings and retirement. Well, if from the MIT living wage calculator that for some particular area, it's $16 to meet the necessities. You can plug that number into the 50% and then figure out what the thriving wage looks like, at least around to get an approximation, to get us above water, to get all the employees working with some financial breathing space. Carol: That's so huge because when I was a single mom and not making a lot of money, those, one-time things. That pretty much happened every third month. Oh my goodness. They threw such a curve ball into everything every time. And so I actually have an item in our personal family budget that is one time items. And so I've been tracking for years how much that is, how much you need to budget for those, unexpected quote unquote things that you can completely expect to happen. Mala: I love Carol: Time Mala: I love that. I love that. There is a great Hidden Brain episode on something like that around the money and You episodes where they talk about like budgeting for the not budgeting for the unexpected expenses, but then recognizing that actually that unexpected expenses happen every year or every, Carol: You just don't know when they're gonna Mala: You don't know when Carol: I dunno when the heater's gonna break or the washing machine's gonna break, but it's gonna break at some point. Mala: And also if you want your, so there's the expenditures that are really critical for your daily operation, just being able to operate in your life, But there's also the money that you might need for relationship building. Like you want to buy your kids some books or take them to the library or get a special gift for your 16th birthday. So that's why we're shooting for the two times living wage as an estimate to get to 1.5 to two point the living wage as a thriving wage number. Carol: And that being your base wage. Mala: It doesn't have to be. Because usually it's a little bit tricky. I, I'm not gonna say it's a little bit Carol: a hundred percent, but. Mala: not a hundred percent, but the lowest wage in the organization should be above that. And assuming that everybody has responsibilities that get tracked on the differential part of the scale, then It would be a little bit more than base wage. . Carol: You talked at one point about, and I'm imagining some chart. This sounds like it can get really nitty gritty in terms of you have a zero, you have all these skills, competencies. But you used a different word for those compensation factors, which was so beyond what is typical, right, of what I just named all those different things named and then defining a 0 1, 2, 3, 4, I don't know how many, how high you go for, for what the different levels are for those. And I would imagine that gets really granular, but at the same time. just be really eye opening for folks to what it actually takes to do each job. Mala: It is. I would say that skills and competencies are actually part of why sometimes organizations will lift it out specifically, but we don't embed it in. I think one of the things in our system is like, they look at how many years of school you need in order to get a job, and then that means you get more pay. In this system we don't make any assumptions. Let folks decide where they wanna put value and why. And so that they come together with some reasoning. So it's Carol: What might somebody put value to that wouldn't show, we wouldn't show up in a typical scenario or a typical compensation process. Mala:. I would say the majority of the compensation factors that we end up using for organizations are areas of responsibility. It's like where are people holding the work that the organization has to do in order to meet its mission? And it's functional. It's not positional. Every position gets scored on every single area of responsibility. Some of those areas of responsibility are functional areas, could be leadership. Project management supervision. It could be fundraising, finance, program communications and external relations. It could be the unseen undervalued labor, like emotional labor, relational labor, JEDI work. The work that people are doing to increase equity and justice within the organization or externally apply it to the work, the programming work that they're doing. There's a lot of different categories that they could pick from. There's also working conditions. When you have to, some positions have to be on 24/7. They have to be on call or there might be a category sometimes we use called that's about the level of vulnerability that you have in your work. If you have to stay in the front desk and you have to stay seated the whole time that can cause physical harm to you. You're vulnerable in that sense. Or you might be exposed to blood if you work in a hospital or a health clinic and you're drawing blood from folks. It could be that you're. Community is being targeted for violence, and you are out there and you're the face of the organization. There's different things that can go into it. It is pretty super granular, so we don't encourage really small organizations to use it wholesale, draw from it what is most important but at the end of the day. It tends to be best for organizations between 15 and 50 people. We have a couple of larger organizations that are interested in implementing it, and we're excited about figuring out how to do that well. But ultimately it's really about being much more transparent about what we're valuing and being able to right size the value of things that are overvalued in the market. Mala: increase the value of things that are undervalued in the market. Carol:. What things that help organizations be successful in this process? Mala:. We have a set of conditions that we call conditions for readiness. I think the first thing is make sure your job descriptions are up to date. 'cause that is really important. Carol: And that can, that can be a hurdle for a lot of organizations. Mala: It can be. It is. And,you hit it right on the spot. There the conditions for readiness cover logistical conditions that are like job descriptions, making sure that you actually have fiscal health. 'cause if you're struggling for fundraising or budgeting, this is not the time to work on equity in the compensation system in this way. And then there are socio psychological conditions, which are around, can you have a conversation around the grief and trauma about money, trauma of money. There's growing research that the financial trauma that our ancestors and can transfer intergenerationally and so How we grew up affects how we're actually making decisions in the organization. We need to separate that out. Like, understand what is our personal trauma versus, and our personal fear around money, and how are we bringing that into the workplace? What is good for the organization, what is not good for the organization? And then I'm forgetting the, the, the second, there's three sets, and I'm forgetting this third set, I think it's on our website. Carol: Well, we'll put links to a lot of those things that you have in your signature so that people have all those resources that you make, that you very generously make available. So on each episode, I like to close out by asking each guest what permission slip would you give nonprofit leaders, or what would you invite them to consider to avoid being a martyr to the cause and as they work to cultivate a healthy organizational culture. So either a permission slip or an invitation or both to nonprofit leaders. Mala: Two things. I think one is: Understand your position with risk, regard to risk and understand if you're risk averse or risk taking. And understand what that impact is. Do you need to scale back a little bit on the risk taking? Do you need to increase your risk taking and understand where you are and what the organization needs based on its lifecycle and stuff? The second is not every law is equal and the ramifications of laws are not all equal. And so sometimes we don't take risks because we're worried about legal liability. But the legal liability is a probability. If this happens, this happens, this happens, this happens, and this happens. And if we do it in this way, this way, and this way. But if you're not doing it in this way, in this way, and it's not, all these conditions don't meet, then you can actually take a risk that is not gonna be as harmful to the organization. Now, as an HR professional, I can never tell someone to not follow the law. I'm not saying break the law. What I'm saying is that some laws have greater risks. So as an organizational leader, they can decide how they wanna approach that risk in a different way. Carol: I feel like for a lot of people, the fear of the unknown on all those HR issues, tends to mean that people wanna be more risk averse. And then, that fear of doing it wrong will mean that, well we can't change any of this 'cause, we're tied in by the law. But what you're saying is there's more flexibility there than they might think. Mala:exactly. Carol: All right. Well thank you so much. This was, so I learned a lot and I'll be excited to put all those links in so that people can access all those resources that you have on this really innovative model that you're working with to help organizations think differently about how they structure their compensation for their staff, which is just so fundamental. Mala:. Thank you Carol, for the opportunity to talk to your audience and to have a conversation with you. It was really nice. Thank you. In episode 81 of Mission: Impact, Danielle Marshall and Carol Hamilton have another ‘learning out loud’ conversation where we delve into the evolving landscape of nonprofit work, focusing on key themes: 🔥 Burnout and Beyond: We kickstart the discussion by addressing the prevalent issue of burnout, which has long haunted the sector. Discover how it has been exacerbated by recent events and how individuals and organizations are tackling it head-on. 🌟 Redefining Success: We dive deep into the changing definitions of success. It's no longer just about productivity and traditional measures. Learn how individuals are crafting new narratives and aligning their actions with their values. 💡 Deepening Impact: Explore the shift from relentless scaling to strategic deepening. We uncover innovative approaches to maximize impact, even with limited resources. 💼 Resource Reallocation: Get insights into how nonprofits are rethinking resource allocation. It's not just about budgets but also about investing time, human resources, and energy more intentionally. 🎯 Mission Focus: Discover the power of niche specialization. What are you doing to hone your focus to prevent mission drift and build confidence in your abilities? Do you have time built into your day or week for intentional and quiet reflection and strategic thinking? 🤝 Collaboration and Partnerships: We explore the art of collaboration and how nonprofits are building meaningful partnerships, passing tasks, and referrals, all while fostering trust and growth. 🌈 Well-Being and Productivity: Learn about the importance of individual and team well-being. How are you incorporating joy and playfulness into your life – inside and outside of work? Timestamped Outline: (00:03:47) Reevaluating values and redefining success during the pandemic (00:07:37) Fostering Internal Cohesion for Organizational Success (00:10:09) Redefining success through thoughtful resource allocation (00:14:19) Narrowing focus for increased impact and success (00:22:33) Creative thought organization with mind mapping (00:36:59) Redefining emergencies and prioritizing strategic thinking Guest Bio: Danielle is an inclusive leader focused on strengthening collaboration among teams, leaders, and stakeholders to foster problem-solving, create solutions, and improve culture. She finds her inspiration in leading systemic change work that promotes equity and inclusion. Danielle founded Culture Principles in response to a persistent need to operationalize Racial Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion metrics, centering REDI goals and creating accountability systems. She supports clients through her Mapping Equity Framework focused on Unearthing Knowledge, Elevating Strategy, and Transforming Sustainability. She centers her work around organizational assessment, racial equity learning intensives, and the development of racial equity action plans. Understanding that each organization arrives at this work from different perspectives, she utilizes assessment in building a customized strategy for each unique partner. Previously Danielle served as a non-profit leader for 20+ years and today works on strategy development that enables nonprofits to achieve equitable mission-driven results. Danielle holds a Master's degree in Industrial-Organizational Psychology from Louisiana Tech University and draws on her background as an I/O psychologist in applying a racial equity lens to organizational policies, practices, and programs. She is a Certified Diversity Professional (CDP)/ Executive Coach (ACC). During her playtime, you can find Danielle traveling, knitting, and kayaking in all 50 states. Episode Links:
● https://www.linkedin.com/in/danimarshall/ Transcript: Carol Hamilton Welcome, Danielle. Welcome to Mission Impact. Danielle Marshall Thanks, Carol. Good to be back. Carol Hamilton This is the second of and I'm borrowing this language from you, Danielle, the Learning Out Loud episode. Danielle came on on episode 75 to start. Just a series of conversations that we're going to have checking in every couple months or so on what we're seeing in terms of the nonprofit sector and our clients that we're working with and having a chance to go a level deeper than I typically do when I'm doing a one time interview. So really excited for the conversation. Danielle Marshall Same. Likewise. Carol Hamilton One of the things that I've been talking about a lot with folks is just the prevalence of burnout in the sector. And also probably I feel like burnout predated the pandemic and then was exacerbated by the pandemic, like many things. But the thing that I see is different is the way in which people are really rethinking and renegotiating their relationship with work. And I'm just curious what you're seeing in the work that you're doing around that. Danielle Marshall Sure. I think I'm having a similar experience in terms of the folks that I come into contact with. And again, I would agree with you that it predated, let's say, COVID. However, I think the period where people were able to be home, many people were either furloughed or laid off. It caused a global, quite frankly, opportunity for us to sit back and just reflect on what was important. And I think we would be remiss to not bring into the conversation all of what was happening. So, again, there was loss of life. There were people who found themselves who used to be doing quite well financially in dire straits at the moment. There's a lot of sickness going on. And I think it was a moment even beyond just thinking about work, like, what are my priorities? How do I want to live my life? And so I've definitely seen some carryover of that thought process, thankfully, quite frankly, into our work today. Carol Hamilton Just a chance, well, being confronted across many fronts with the fact that we are finite beings. We don't go on forever. And so what does that mean? How am I living my life right now? Is that in alignment with my values? And maybe I just hate to say that it was slowing down because I think in many ways it wasn't, but there was a different way of time, space maybe, for people to be with their thoughts, think about what's important. And certainly for me, it also predated the pandemic, so I started to try to rethink that by moving into my well. If you turn 50, are you moving into your 6th decade? I guess so. I never quite get that one right, but hitting that half well, probably more than halfway mark and thinking, okay, what do I want to do with the rest of my time, whatever that time might be, and is how I'm spending my time, the way that I want to be doing it going forward. And part of that has just been for me trying to unpack how much I had internalized the Protestant work ethic and my worth being tied up in my productivity, the outcomes that I produce, all of that and really trying to untangle all of that. Danielle Marshall I have a deep appreciation for that last piece that you mentioned in particular because I think what I saw many people, including myself, going through during this period was a redefining of success, right? So we've all been told on some level what success means. Much of it has been tied to Protestant work ethic, but even what it means to be successful in one's career, what it means to be successful in one's family life, like, are you married? Do you have children? Right? These are things that were set up as norms that people were expected to adhere to. And I think what I witnessed, and particularly as I add a racial lens to this as well, is it's almost like people got a collective memo at the same time that was like, we're taking a pause on the way we used to do things. And it's not to say that there was one particular way to move forward, but what we want to do is start asking a deeper question of is this meaningful to me? Who am I today? And we had a lot of time to think about that while we were home for two years. Plus, who am I today? Who do I want to be? Should I be telling this story to my kids, my grandkids, or any future person that would come across my life story? Did I lean into the values and ideals that I espouse? And so that feels really important to the conversation in terms of success, because what a lot of folks realize is I don't actually subscribe to the success that is normal. It's just a narrative we've been told. Carol Hamilton And I think a lot of people are in the nonprofit sector because in some ways they're already stepping away from those typical measures of success. Very few people go into the nonprofit sector to make a lot of money. If you want to do that, you're going to go into something where you do make a lot of money. And at the same time, we're still in a capitalist society, we're still measured by a lot of those things, like how big is your budget as an organization? All of those different things factor into what people see as successful or not successful at the organizational level. So we still have those pressures even when as individuals, we may have at one point made an affirmative decision to say, that's not my life goal. And then, of course, there's the flip side of having made that decision, the extent to which that can be really weaponized against people 100%. Danielle Marshall I think it speaks volumes to this idea of what it takes to disrupt systems. Right. So I may have changed my mind, or the next person may have changed their mind about what they want to sit in, how they're defining success. But it does not mean that my team members or the organization or the greater world or sector is following along with that. And I think what I've seen that's been particularly interesting is all the conversations that are happening with multiple stakeholder groups around Redefining that I think the first group I consciously remember, and some of this started even pre COVID, was with the foundations and the funders where people were saying, we believe in metrics. We think they're important, but there's more than just how many people were served, how many trees were planted that we need to actually think about in the grand scheme of things. And as I think about the metrics today, it's really interesting to hear how many companies are now talking about satisfaction rates among employees and engagement and retention, because they're understanding it isn't simply about coming to the job and making the widget. Right. There is something more about building a cohesive team that still works to uphold nonprofit missions. But we're part of that process. We're part of the mission because we have to be in a healthy space in order for us to leverage the best of our teams. Carol Hamilton I think that recognition of it's not just about the outside mission, it's not just about how many people we served, but how are we working with each other inside the organization, and is that also in alignment with the values that we espouse? Danielle Marshall And that feels like oftentimes it's in misalignment, quite frankly, even to today, I'm seeing many more people care for the conversation overall, but it doesn't mean that it seems to be working for everyone. Right. They're aware that they need to have this conversation, but we've not been in a place, quite frankly, as a society where we have cared for our people in that way most of the time. We came from an industrial place where it was like, hey, I need you on the factory line making X amount of product, et cetera, in this many hours. And I think some of that mindset has very much carried over to even how we do our work in nonprofits. We're serving this many people because one of the things that's hard for me sometimes when I think about nonprofits is I understand that our ability to scale who we serve has a lot to do with the greater impact that we have. But if we're not providing quality for our staff, that translates into not providing the best quality for the communities that we say that we care about at this moment. Carol Hamilton There's a definite ripple effect, and you're not setting up your staff for success in being able to deliver those programs if they're constantly being expected to just burn themselves out. Before we got on the call, I was thinking about this in terms of I feel like a lot of folks and certainly there's an extent to which this is outside of folks control, but in a lot of the conversations I hear, I feel like people put that more of it is outside of their control than actually is. That with the pressure to always be doing more, always being growing, that that's a have to versus we're choosing how we're going to expand or not expand. And even looking at, okay, if we were to just wonderful to have a growth strategy and plan and for how we're going to increase our resources. But if we were actually just to think about what our current resources are right now, what can we reasonably do with those. Danielle Marshall and what could we do differently? I know the last time that we met we talked a little bit about language. And so even as I hear you say growing and growing, what does that mean for us? So if we have a budget, and it doesn't matter if your budget is 500,000, a million, 20 million, what could we be doing differently with the resources that we have available today? Because I think some of the challenges that we're experiencing are not just related to sort of this shift in culture that we're seeing, but it's also related to the fact that we want to continue to do business as we've always done business. And so if I'm only thinking about my resources in the way that we've created a budget for this million dollars, here's how we've always spent it. This is how much gets allocated to the community. This is how much is overhead. It doesn't leave a lot of flexibility for us to rethink what we might do if we move some of those things around. And I think that is part of. It’s an opportunity, I guess I would say, for us to both be thoughtful about the communities. Again, that is our mission, right? To serve the communities, but also to think about how we're allocating those resources to serve our staff in the process. Carol Hamilton What are some ways that you've seen people start to rethink that versus always? Because I do feel like oftentimes the answer to what could be better is more staff, more volunteers. So instead if we flip it to thinking differently about what you do have. Danielle Marshall I'm thinking about it as growing impact does not mean always scaling. So what would it mean to deepen the work that we did within the organization? So instead of an example that came up not too long ago for me was a nonprofit who was basically saying they knew what the community needed and they were providing these resources only to really over this COVID period realize, hey, there are probably some things we might be able to do differently. So taking the same exact budget that they had prior to the pandemic, it's like we're going to go back to the community, the stakeholders themselves, and ask them what that we are providing today is of value to you. Right. And what are the things that we may have been missing completely or what are the things that need to be tweaked. And so I still have the same amount of resources, but I am amplifying our ability to have this impact in this moment because I'm being more thoughtful and intentional about how we apply those resources. And so I think that's an example of where growth to me doesn't necessarily mean growing to reach more people, though there is the possibility that because they've made these shifts, they may actually impact more people's lives because they're providing the right tool. Right. So instead of saying we can't do this or it's not going to work for our organization, what are the possibilities that exist? Carol Hamilton I appreciate not only redefining success but also redefining growth. That growth could be not necessarily increasing numbers always, but going deeper and working differently. So there's an evolution in that growth versus just a linear metric, moving the needle upward, if you will. Danielle Marshall I just had a conversation with a colleague this morning and we were working on a presentation that we're doing together and she just said at one point, and I really appreciated this, she goes, I know we have limited time, but my preference is to go narrow and deeper as opposed to wider but shallow. And that just resonated so much with me because I think sometimes with what we consider limited resources or limited time, et cetera, we're like, well, how much can we squeeze in to maximize this? As opposed to pausing and saying with the resource, whether it's time, human, or financial, what do we want to do that's really going to deepen our impact at this moment? Carol Hamilton I think narrowing can be just the hardest thing for organizations to do. And not just organizations, I've found that in my own practice, like making choices about who I'm going to be working with and what services am I going to work on. All of those things take time to hone in on and figure out what is going to make more impact. But I do really appreciate the idea of being able to focus in and go deeper versus always trying to be all things to all people. I think organizations, my experience is that they struggle with that just out of a sense of wanting to be helpful. But then, as you're saying, if you take that minute to think because the resources are always limited, no matter how abundant your resources, they are limited. So with that, what do you want to do? Danielle Marshall What do we do? It's so interesting too, because so many nonprofits, and I've worked for many over the years. One of the first conversations that always comes up is we're talking about Mission Drift. How do we make sure we stay on target, we serve the clients we're expected to serve, that we're getting to the outcomes that we've outlined. And I think my experience has been where I've seen a lot more success is where people niche down and they say, even if it's three things, here are the three things we do. And if it is outside of those things that we do and we know that we do well, we'll recommend another partner. There's another agency that can support you. But when you know what it is you're supposed to be focusing on, that means all of your resources and time and energy really goes to deepening that. Carol Hamilton Impact, getting better at it, increasing your competency around that. And then I think there's a confidence in being focused and centered in on that and having the confidence that you can pass things along, that people will be taken care of. It's not your entire job to do it all and that you would be aware of what else is going on around you. So that part of that might be, okay, we're going to stop doing this thing that we've done every once in a while. When it's popped up in our request box, we're going to hand it over to this other group, but we have to spend some time actually building that relationship so that that handoff goes well versus it feeling just like, well, ping, ping, ping. You're off to refer to yet another organization. Danielle Marshall I also think that ties right back into where we started with Burnout, when we can niche down and be very clear about what we're doing, we're not spreading our staff thin. There's still going to be ample work to go around in the organization. But it feels very different to say I work on this one major project or initiative or these two things in the organization as opposed to where do you spend your time? I'm like, oh, I do 30 things right, and that's on a good day, that feels much more intentional. And if you think about your own life, and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when I am able to really focus on one thing and do it well, I'm not in the process of trying to multitask and move between these activities. I am focused. The quality of work that I'm able to produce is much higher than what happens when I'm like, oh, I have to take this call and I have to work on this report, and I have to do all of these things. And coming from the nonprofit sector, that feels like a big part of life. And so when you think about Burnout, well, of course people are burning out. They're exhausted, right? And then we're not caring for them when they go home to give them the space and the time they need to recharge themselves to come back to the office. And so it just feels like we could be certainly much more intentional than we have been to date. Carol Hamilton I feel like it's almost a badge of honor. Like, I wear so many different hats and I have to do so many different things. I've just given up the notion of multitasking, but it's also taken me a long time and I'm probably still definitely a work in progress in terms of have I right sized my to do list for today of what's actually possible to get done? Danielle Marshall Oh my gosh, I feel that so much. I have started to practice at MITS. So they call it MITS because it's your most important task. And the idea behind MIT is that it is something that is really important. So if you set your goals, let's say for the month, for the week, whatever, you're picking the one task that if you advance that, it's going to make everything easier for you. Okay? And so it's really significant to your overall goals. But the goal then, furthermore, would be to get it done before 10:00 A.m.. And this has been a game changer for me because after 10:00 A.m., it's like all bets are off. Anything could happen. You have a client, you have a funder, you have someone who is stepping in. They're like, oh, I need you to fix this problem. And if you have not focused on the things strategically that were going to advance your goals or the organizational goals at that moment, it may get lost. Right? So now we're looking at 05:00 and you're like, oh, I ran out of time today. I had meetings, I had all these things come up. And we're constantly behind. So what does that lead people to do? They go home from work, maybe they have dinner if they're lucky with their families, kiss their kids goodnight, and it's like, boom, off to the races, I'm back on email. When does that give you time to actually settle, to have some joy in your life? And so when I think about this, I'm like that's partially true, at least in my world, what I am seeing from people is they're like, I just can't work around the clock anymore. Carol Hamilton I don't want to do this, don't want to. Of course, studies have also shown that when you're working like that, you're much less efficient. You're not bringing your best brain power. You're just too tired. You can't think well about any of those things. So with that MIT most important thing, what are some of the questions that you ask yourself to try to help you prioritize? What is going to be that most important thing for the day? Danielle Marshall I'm a big goal person, right? So I will set my goals for the year, and then I set quarterly goals. And then I'm thinking about monthly, but even as I'm doing that, what helps me get to my monthly sort of or I should say weekly. Right? We take the big picture and then we whittle it down. What is it based on my quarterly plan that feels important for this month? And maybe I'll just choose one big topic that I'm working on. So it might be my own professional development. It could be if we're talking about nonprofits, it could be a fundraising objective, whatever it happens to be, I'm thinking about that. What are all of the steps that I need to take in order to make this big goal that I have for the month come to life? Right. And so if I were to think about that now in terms of the weeks and the month, what could I break this down to? Say weekly is the theme, and then under that if I only have five days because we don't work on weekends, if I only have five days, what are the things, the five big things that I'm going to do before 10:00 A.m.? I don't know that I have a particular question, but it's just generally thinking what is going to help me get to this thing? And the example I might use with some of my clients is if you, for instance, let's say you want to buy a house, right? And so everyone's thinking about this house, and the big thing that comes to mind for people is like, oh, I got to save all this money. Okay, great. You do need a down payment for a house, but there are so many other steps that one might take before you even get to the purchase of it. Do you know? Have you researched what neighborhood you want to live in? If you have kids? Do you think about the school systems? What is your savings plan? Have you run a credit report? Right. Like, there are all of these steps, and they don't need to be done on the same day. So to break them out over time allows you to scale. And even if you spent an hour a day on this one task, at the end of the week, you've done 5 hours, at the end of the month, you've done 20 hours. You are far more like, ahead of schedule in terms of working through your objectives than you were when you were just leaving it to the end of the day, hoping there would be time for you to get to it. Carol Hamilton Having that bigger thing in mind and then breaking it down into the smallest steps. I'm starting a new project, and my favorite way of doing this at first is to do a mind map so the circle in the middle and then all the whatever comes to mind. Because I feel like if I write a list, it should be organized this way. I have no obligation to be organized in any way. One thing can spark another. And then I take that mess and I put it in. Okay, well, what would be some of the first steps to get me going? And I love that idea of taking an hour during the day before you know things are going to start pulling you away from your plan for the day and get that thing done. Danielle Marshall And for people who are visual, because I use a mind map tool, it's like a favorite tool. Now. You could actually post it near your desk. Right? So I go a step further with my mind map and I actually apply numbers to it. So what's the first thing I think I should do? What's the second thing? And even within the spokes that come off of a mind map, there still may be multiple steps. Right. But if I'm thinking about it in terms of a process, what feels like I must do it first in order to enable me to do these next couple of things. And so it can be visual, it can be a list. But the thing is, do you have a system to be intentional? Carol Hamilton One of the things that I started doing in graduate school and then after graduate school, I was very reluctant in graduate school where they're always like, okay, so we did the thing, you've written the paper, now write the reflection. I was like, oh my God, do I have to do that? But I built myself a tool so that I could integrate this and now I do it on a weekly basis. And so I have that. I have a chance every week to look at all those questions. Then I've got data over time, right, to be able to look at the big picture, what's going on. But it also the other way is important too, to go from the big, but really breaking it down into the small pieces and figuring out what is going to get you just one step further. Danielle Marshall I wonder to some extent how what we're talking about now also relates back to burnout. Because one of the things that I've had to be intentional in my own world doing is I carve out the time to plan, right? So I have my quarterly retreats with myself. I'm taking some time to think about what I want my week to look like, my month, et cetera. But when I think about most people at work, they come in on Monday morning and it's like hitting the ground running. These ten problems came up over the weekend. We need you to address them. Where is the intentional carved out space for quiet thinking and reflection? So if you want me to be strategic in my approach, I need some time to think about strategy. Carol Hamilton Certainly. It's been a lot easier in the same way for me, once I'm a little bit more not completely in control of my schedule, but a little bit more to be able to set some boundaries, take that Friday afternoon to do those kinds of things. But even inside organizations, I think I was always the person who was like, there are emergencies and then there are the emergencies that we create for ourselves, and we can build systems to deal with the second type so that we don't have to do this over and over again. Early in my career, I worked for a company that put a magazine out every two weeks and we acted like it was an emergency every two weeks. I was like, we do this every two weeks. We can figure out how to do it without it being a crisis. So trying to differentiate between those two and I think sometimes there's almost like a valorization of that chaoticness that we must be more important if we're this busy and we're spinning like this. It's like, no, it's just disorganized. Danielle Marshall That's a mindset shift again around what it means to be successful. Carol Hamilton Right. Danielle Marshall I am not measuring my success on the amount of angst. I feel like that is not the measure that I want to bring forth. And I think it takes time. But I think the leadership team, additionally, really needs to be involved in this. I have one client right now, and they do something that when I first met them, I was like, wow, it's so simple in nature. And yet I was like, I don't hear of many groups doing this. On Fridays, they meet as a team. The entire team comes to these meetings and they just talk. They talk about an article, a podcast, a thought that they've been having, a client issue that they've been dealing with. And there's no agenda. It's just anybody bringing whatever they want to the table and they have a discussion. But what I experienced, because I sat in on a number of those calls, is the level of thoughtfulness and opportunity to play with what we considered sort of half baked ideas. Like, you don't have to have a fully fleshed out thought around this. It's just I was wondering, or I was thinking here's my initial thought. What do you think about this? Right. So in that space, and it was only an hour, it was working time with the group to challenge assumptions, to think differently, to bring new perspectives in. And they were able to then take those learnings and apply them to their everyday jobs. And I'm like, it was an hour and how innovative but transformative it was for the organization. Carol Hamilton It was an hour. But it was a weekly practice too. Danielle Marshall Yes, exactly. Carol Hamilton An investment. And probably, I would guess, that there was a real commitment for everyone to show up to it too, for it. Danielle Marshall To work, that they want. . The word practice, I think is important because, again, very similar to the MITS, right? Like, if I do this four times a month, that's 4 hours off. Dedicated staff time that we have to really think beyond our current vision, if you will. Right. What could be? What are the possibilities, what are we missing? And I think what I also appreciated about that is there was no question that wasn't appropriate to ask in that space. We could go where our minds and our imaginations took us. So it could be thinking about a particular project or just maybe a worldwide issue here, something that we are dealing with, but it's having ramifications in our field and our work day to day. How do we tackle this, what is our position on this? And so when we're asking those big questions and bringing curiosity to the forefront, I think it sparks more curiosity in our everyday work. It was safe to do that and so therefore, I'm going to continue that practice. Carol Hamilton Right. It's modeling, being able to talk in a first draft and ask those different questions and not just wait until they're doing strategic planning to think about the bigger issues that are going on around them. Once every three to five years we're going to do an environmental scan. No, it's every week we're bringing something in to ponder. Danielle Marshall What really I think excited me about that opportunity is everyone on the team participated in it, including the CEO. And that's a big deal to have literally your leadership also commit to say, you know what, I'm not too busy that I can't be in a thinking. Carol Hamilton Space with you all well, and to model thinking out loud. Danielle Marshall You got it, right? That's it. Carol Hamilton I mean, there are some organizations that are literally dealing with emergencies and I think there's a mindset that many more organizations believe they are than they are and so differentiating the two. And I'm trying to think of what would be some other ways that organizations could carve out some more time. I think another one comes to mind is having a certain day where you don't have meetings and it's okay to say no to client meetings or whatever it might be, just having some space so that people have time to do some deeper work. Danielle Marshall I do that for myself. And I will say this, I am not always successful, but Wednesdays have been labeled my thinking day and it's on my calendar as thinking day. And so when I introduce this to people they're like, well, what do you think about for 8 hours? The thing is, I can think about whatever I want. If there is something that is happening in my industry, I can think about that. I might use the time to write because writing is also reflective of me. There's a lot that can be occurring or I might actually reach out to a colleague during my thinking day because I'm just the same as we're doing right now. As we're learning out loud and we're having this conversation, I'm like, oh, what nuggets can I pull from this that I might be able to apply. And so I don't know that we always need to think about this in terms of huge resources or all hands. Some of these things might be a team is focusing on it and some of it might just be allowing people to have space as an individual to reflect. Carol Hamilton Another thing that you had brought up around the flip side of Burnout or maybe it's one way we've been talking about it is building in some practices, having some shared agreement that Friday is going to be no. Meetings. Or Wednesday is going to be no meetings and people have time to think. Or we're going to spend an hour as a team talking about something beyond the to-do list, but also bringing Joy back into the work. For me, it's always reconnecting to why do I do this? Help me. But there are lots of other ways. Danielle Marshall I think it's joy in the work, but I think when we initially even started talking about joy, I wasn't even thinking about it connected to the workplace. And I think part of this is in the redefining of success and reevaluating who we want to be. It's also a reevaluation of how I want to spend my time right. Both inside of work and outside. So during the pandemic, a lot of people found new hobbies. Like, I remember how the news every day talked about you couldn't find baking supplies anywhere. Needs to be found. And we sort of laughed at it. But there was a reason, like people found something that they could literally make with their hands. I am finding pleasure in cooking for my family or knitting or running whatever it was that brought them joy. And I think when you are doing more of those things for yourself outside of a workspace, when you return to work, you are refreshed. You are sort of renewed at this moment. But the other thing is, and I don't know if you've had this experience, I'm a big crafter, so I knit a lot. I like fiber art. When I spend time doing that, my mind actually has a chance to just go, right. And I'm not thinking about anything other than what I'm doing at that moment. And it allows me to come back with clarity. Right. Because I wasn't sitting in this place, I have to fix this problem, I have to solve this for someone else. I literally just had time for me to sit with my own thoughts. And so there's a beauty in that because now when it is time to go back, wow, you're going to get a very different version of Danielle than you would have gotten if I had been on call 24/7 for the entire week. Carol Hamilton Definitely. For me, a lot of it is getting up and taking a walk or swimming laps where I just remember my mother in law once she couldn't imagine swimming laps. It seemed incredibly boring to her. So she was like, what do you think about it? And I was like, the whole point is I don't think about anything. Danielle Marshall That's exactly it, nothing. Carol Hamilton But in that reexamination, one of the things that I started doing, and again, just for the pleasure of it, is learning how to draw, and it's not for any purpose. I don't want to call myself an artist. I'm not trying to display things or have anything come out of it. It's just for the fun of it. And I get into a state of flow, and I'm really focused. And the whole notion that people can have hobbies, I think, is having a comeback. Danielle Marshall Years ago, I worked at a nonprofit, Kaboom, and one of the things that they had was boomerisms. And they said, we don't want to do routine things routinely. And I had a deep appreciation for that then, but it really feels true for me now. So even if we are to take this concept of joy and bring it back into the workspace, what are the things that we're doing that we're so in a routine with? It's just like, oh, I have to fill out my travel paperwork or I have to submit this reimbursement, and it feels like it's drudgery, or I have to go to this team meeting. Are there ways that we can begin to do things in non routine? Ways that allow for joy, that allow for some playfulness? Because that feels like that's missing when everything's mission critical constantly, that's hard. There are certainly organizations that are in the business of saving lives. Many of us are not. It doesn't mean our mission is not important. Carol Hamilton Right. Danielle Marshall But if we took a day off or we were somewhat playful in this process, it wouldn't do any damage. If anything, it helps us. It brings us alive. And I think about, what are the things that we call emergencies that we react to almost immediately that did not have to be emergencies if we had taken time, one, to plan for them, and two, to do things in a non routine way because we're shaking it up. Carol Hamilton I think reevaluating what actually is an emergency is a big one, unfortunately. I feel like in our culture, there's a status in being able to create emergencies that is really unhelpful. Danielle Marshall I want no part of that. I don't know. Just call me boring. I like, is where I want to be. Absolutely. Again, go ahead. Carol Hamilton I was just going to say I love a good routine. I was in a workshop where they said, who are you the patron saint of? And I was like, I think I'm the patron saint of routine. So I'll have to think about, though, how I can be more playful with my routines. Danielle Marshall My favorite thing to tell people when they call me, and they're like, what have you been up to, and I'm like, nothing. It's amazing. And you know that's not true. We all have things that are on our agenda, but honestly, a life that is drama free, where it's consistent in a lot of ways, that feels good. And I'm not saying that to shy away from risk or experimentation with things, but I want to be mindful in how we approach that so that the intentionality is there. We're going to try some new things out because it helps defer on creativity and innovation, but sometimes that routine means that slow and steady actually allows you to do more. Carol Hamilton So as we wrap up from this conversation, what invitation would you give to nonprofit leaders? I don't know. As they think about their next quarter, let's say. Danielle Marshall I think the first thing that I would be asking right now is, where are there opportunities for you to embed reflection time in both as a team and as individuals? And for those who push back immediately and say there isn't that, why is that? There's 24 hours in every day, and it's all about, for me, how we choose to use the time that we have allotted. So if we're at work for 8 hours out of the day, is it not a valuable use of your time to see where planning, even for an hour or two, just to get started, might yield greater benefits for you? Carol Hamilton And what are the assumptions that are embedded in we can't . Danielle Marshall That's a limiting belief. Carol Hamilton And for me, I think it would be, how can you bring a little more playfulness into what you're doing inside and outside of work? Danielle Marshall I'm going to go a little bit deeper on that one, too, because I like that. But what does joy mean for your staff? What does it mean for you? Right. So instead of mandating that we all go bowling this Thursday oh, God, no. Because we do that right. As nonprofit leaders. But instead of mandating fun, the beatings will continue until morale improves. What does it mean for the team to actually say, this is a valuable use of my time. I not only enjoyed it, but I got to know my colleagues better? It felt good to be in that space. Carol Hamilton Because there's a lot of Band Aid approaches to that that don't actually achieve the goal at all. Danielle Marshall Absolutely. Carol Hamilton All right. Appreciate it. All right. Well, thank you, Danielle. Danielle Marshall This was so much fun. Talk about joy. It's a joy to talk to you. Absolutely. In episode 78 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton celebrates Mission: Impact’s 3rd anniversary and goes solo to talk about:
Transcript: Carol Hamilton: When I work with a client on strategic planning, one of the steps that I take the group through is a brainstorm on the wider trends that are impacting their organization and the field that they work within. I sometimes get the question of – why did we bother doing this if the results do not get into the final product – and sometimes what is lifted up in that wider environmental scan is reflected in the final product and sometimes it is not. Yet I still think it is important for a group to think out beyond their organization and consider what is going on more broadly that could impact their future. Welcome to the three year podiversary of Mission: Impact. I released the first few episodes of the podcast in August of 2020 and a lot has happened in the wider world during that period. On this 3 year pod-iversary episode, I will explore a couple big trends I am observing in the sector. Mission: Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I’m Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategy consultant. Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. On this podcast we explore how to make your organization more effective and innovative. We dig into how to build organizational cultures where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers. All of this is for the purpose of creating greater mission impact. Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategy consulting for nonprofits and associations. We help you move your mission forward, engage all voices and have fun while we are doing that. We combine left-brain strategy and analysis with right-brain wisdom about human complexities for a proven, whole-brain, whole-organization process through which every stakeholder thrives. Reach out to us for support and facilitation of strategic planning, mapping your impact, auditing your services and getting an organizational assessment. We especially love working with staffed nonprofits and associations with human centered missions. I have been thinking a lot recently about the shifts that I have observed over the course of my career. One of the big trends that I am noticing and experiencing myself – is the reconsideration of the role of work in our lives. Over the course of my career starting in the late 80s/early 90s, the idea of finding your dream job that fully matched your skills, talents and interests became more and more pronounced. I remember my older sister recommending the book What Color is Your Parachute, early on in my career. I dutifully did all the exercises to hone in on what was going to be more fulfilling in work. Countless other career related books with the general theme of – love your job and you will never work a day in your life – came out over the years – and I read way too many of them. With each job change, I was looking for greater optimization. More of this, less of that. Luckily I did always keep in mind – that as one boss had told me along the way – there is a reason they call it work – and there is a reason you are paid. There are always aspects of every job that are not fun. As we have been encouraged to follow our passions and center that as we think about our careers – more recently people are examining the dark side of that pursuit. How jobs that are about your passion are ripe for exploitation. For example, When there are many people waiting for their chance to get into a career, it is easy for employers to pay very little because the people in the coveted roles are just “lucky to be there” – in fields such as publishing or the arts. In the nonprofit sector, we have wages of fulfillment of feeling like we are contributing to the greater social good or fighting for a good cause. And hopefully we are – and that is one aspect that has certainly been a motivating factor for me over the years in the sector. And yet there is a downside to this. It can also lead to workers being used and abused. With the notion that if you are doing nonprofit work, you should be ok with lower wages and a broken desk chair and that slow computer and outdated software. I have talked before on this podcast about the concept of “vocational awe”, a term coined by Fobazi Michelle Ettarh which really crystallized it for me. As Ettarh, a librarian by profession, writes – vocational awe ”is the idea that libraries as institutions are inherently good. It assumes that some or all core aspects of the profession are beyond critique, and it, in turn, underpins many librarians’ sense of identity and emotional investment in the profession.” This concept does not just apply to librarians – it applies to much of nonprofit work – most helping professions. If you love your job and you fully identify with the job, you don’t really need to be paid well or have healthy work conditions – you should feel lucky to always be asked to go above and beyond. And then we wonder why the sector is afflicted with a huge case of burn out. Burn out is certainly showing up all over our economy – and the conditions in our sector make it even more likely – where the need so often outstripping demand for our services, the constant struggle for funding and support and rarely being fully staffed – make burn out rife. And more broadly, it is not really surprising given how our economic life has been consistently unraveled over the last 40+ years. Several books I have read over the past couple years have helped me understand how we got here. One was “Your job will not love you back” by Sarah Jaffee. It examines how a labor of love – in a variety of contexts including the nonprofit sector – can lead to that exploitation that I have been talking about One that I read more recently was the Good Enough Job by Simone Stolzoff. It really looks how wrapped up our identities have become in what we do – and how that “love what you do” has meant that people are looking for their careers to fulfill way more than is really possible in our lives. Somewhat in the same way that our romantic relationships – looking for “the one” has created expectations of one person fulfilling all our needs in a way that is really not possible. One of his remedies is cultivating a hobby. Finding flow and fulfillment is doing something outside of work – and not with the idea that you are pursuing it to create a side hustle. Just doing the thing for the thing. Two more books that put these trends in context for me include The Sum of Us: How Racism Hurts Everyone by Heather McGhee and Can't Even: How Millennials Became the Burnout Generation By Anne Helen Petersen. Both examine the historical, economic and sociological background of how we got to where we are today. And together they helped me understand the trends I have experienced since starting to work in the Reagan era. McGhee’s book explains why we can’t have nice things in the US – the example she opens with is very illustrative. Apparently public pools were common in the early 20th century in the US. But when there was a push to integrate pools – white people decided to close them and pave them over rather than share them with people of color. Instead private swimming clubs popped up all over the suburbs. This dynamic has played out over and over and undermined many attempts to bring the type of social safety net that many European countries enjoy – white people in the US would apparently rather go without – without affordable housing, universal health care, decent wages supported by unionization – than share these public goods with people of color. In Can’t Even – which really in some ways has a misleading title – Petersen examines the historical, economic and sociological trends that led to the high level of economic precarity that our increasingly gig based economy brings. She argues that the anxiety that that brings, drives a lot of the behavior that we observe within our work and broader lives today. One interesting thread that she describes is how the workaholic ethic of the tech, finance, consulting and legal professions with staying at the office late into the evening, has spread throughout the economy – and become so commonplace that actually working 9-5 is now called quiet quitting. For me, this has been part of my attempt to dismantle my internalized protestant work ethic and disentangle my sense of worth being derived from my productivity. It is an ongoing and emerging pursuit and I can still feel guilty when I prioritize rest over work. What does any of this mean for you as you work in the sector? I would invite you to consider what assumptions and “givens” you have accepted as ‘just the way it is’ over your career in terms of how your work is structured and what you are expected to give the organization you work for or support? To what extent is your identity wrapped up in what you do and who you do it for? How might you begin or expand pursuits that you do just for the sake and pleasure of doing them? How might your organization better focus its attention and initiatives so that it works well within its constraints instead of just pretending they don’t exist? What guardrails can the organization agree to, to prioritize worker well being – such as striking the phrase “fast paced environment” from job descriptions (that is one that I read as code for we are all workaholics here or our workplace is chaotic and disorganized!), or considering the possibility of a 4 day work week – or closing the office for a period of time, not just at the winter holidays, to give everyone a break. And how can the structures that support organizations help make all these things possible? By funding general support, streamlining reporting requirements and for government grants – fully funding the true cost of providing services? I invite you to consider how we could create a sector together where everyone thrives and no one has to be a martyr to the cause. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me. thank you for helping me celebrate this three year milestone for the podcast. You can find the full transcript of the episode, as well as links to the books I mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as Cindy Rivera Grazer of 100 Ninjas for her production support. Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategic planning, mapping, & audits for nonprofits and associations. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Please take a minute to share it with a colleague or friend. We appreciate you helping us get the word out. And until next time, thank you for everything you do to contribute and make an impact. In episode 65 of Mission: Impact, Carol and her guest, Lisa G. Hazirjian discuss:
Lisa Hazirjian, PhD, founded Win Together Consulting to help progressive change makers develop strategy, build power, engage supporters, and leverage strengths to achieve their goals. She holds a Bachelor of Arts in Public Policy Studies, Graduate Certificate in Women’s Studies, and Ph.D. in U.S. History from Duke University, and is working toward a Nonprofit Leadership Certificate from the Harvard Kennedy School. You can reach Lisa at lisa@wintogetherconsulting.com. Important Links and Resources: Transcript: Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Lisa Hazirjian. Mission Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I’m Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. On this podcast we explore how to make your organization more effective and innovative. We dig into how to build organizational cultures where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers. All of this is for the purpose of creating greater mission impact. Lisa and I talk about public policy advocacy for nonprofits. We explore how anger and sadness can be a catalyst for action, how nonprofits – specifically [501]c3s in the US – can incorporate advocacy into their work and to further their mission, why it is so important to think about why your issue could matter to a decision maker – from their point of view, some simple steps you can take to start building a relationship with policy makers, and how to identify and build a ladder of engagement for your supporters Welcome Lisa. Welcome to the podcast. Lisa Hazirjian: Thank you so much, Carol. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here today. Carol: I'd like to start out with a question around what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you and what would you describe as your why? Lisa: A lot of answers to that question, but they really all come back to two things. One of which is really at, at a few key points in my life needing to find an outlet for a lot of sadness and anger during times of loss. And the other being my training as a historian, I did a career change. I have a PhD in modern US history and I studied social movements and public policy and how they influenced one another. And the moment when all of that came together Was 2008. The moment really lasted about six months starting with a tenure track job offer which was great. Except at the university where I was offered a job. This is back before marriage equality. And I would be moving with my partner now, my wife and the university didn't offer domestic partner benefits and that. Could have been a big issue. And so I asked if they might be able to come up with some way for my wife to get onto the university's health insurance policy. I pointed to a couple of examples of other universities that had made these kinds of accommodations. And long story short the response, I got a few days. The immediate response I got was being yelled at, which was not good. But the ultimate response was being told the university is no longer considering your candidacy for this position. And I. That was very upsetting as you can imagine. And this was 2008 and I suddenly had a lot of time on my hands because the contract I had had just ended. And I didn't know what I was going to be doing, but. I was approached and asked to pull volunteers together for the Obama campaign to have a presence at the Cleveland Pride Parade and Festival and I did that. And I did that specifically. Because Barack Obama was a candidate who, although he did not at the time support marriage equality yet he did support an employment non-discrimination act that we still don't have. Still trying to get what's now the Equality Act passed. But for me, this was a way, not just to get something for myself, but to get something for everyone to fight, to have a president who would sign a much needed non-discrimination act. And that became the thing that I put all of my emotions into for the next several months. And really saw a lot of the things I had studied coming into action in terms of what it means to do. Marshall your leadership skills in a way that draws in hundreds of people to build the collective power you need to achieve a goal, which in this case was getting Ohio for, for the campaign. After the campaign I took some time to take stock and realized that I should build myself an off-ramp from academia and an on-ramp into professional advocacy work. Carol: I feel like that's an off-ramp that a lot of people are exploring these days. But that's a different conversation. Lisa: I would say it is a different conversation. And I can recommend someone to talk to you about that. Carol: I appreciate that story and I do think that a lot of advocacy work does start with something you're angry about or something that pisses you off, or sadness or any of those things that can be a catalyst to, okay, well I can sit in this, or I can try to move things forward and. Said, have things be different for me, but have things be different for a wider group of people, which is, which is so important. My exit from history, I was a history major back in college, was much less dramatic than yours. I was doing my thesis for my BA and at the library, the big library downtown in Philadelphia and reading magazines from the late 1800s. I was looking at the role of advice being given to women on parenting in that time period in Germany. And I found that I was allergic to old paper. So a life of being an art for sure was not going to be in my future. So, not quite the same, but got that commonality, that background. So as you said, you've shifted into doing political ad advocacy work and, and helping people with their political campaigns. With, with nonprofit organizations, and I think there are a lot of misconceptions that people have about what's allowed, what isn't allowed. What would you say are some of those, some of the biggest misconceptions that you run into in terms of advocacy work and organization, non profit organizations that you work? Lisa: It's interesting. I mean, I think plenty of people before me have said that one of the biggest misconceptions out there is this idea that nonprofits can't do policy advocacy. And that's just absolutely not the case. Of course they can. And I would argue they should, right? Nonprofits have a lot more knowledge and experience in a whole range of fields than our areas where public policy is made than most of the people who are making those decisions. And when nonprofits bring their voices and bring the voices of the people they serve into those conversations. To try to advance policies. They're really doing a service to everyone cuz it's not like lawmakers can be experts on everything, none of us can. AndI'm, I'm not an attorney and if I were, I would have a disclaimer that I'm not giving legal advice. But, but the short of it is that, As long as you aren't endorsing a particular political candidate doing anything to try to affect the to try to elect person X over person y it's very likely that you're perfectly legally compliant. And it's nearly impossible for most organizations, even full-time advocacy organizations. Run up against the IRS limits on how much time and money you can spend on advocacy. But that misconception aside, cause that's one that comes up over and over. I actually think another really really major misconception is, progressive nonprofits can't get anything done unless Democrats are in power. Or the flip side of that, that having democrats in power means that progressive nonprofits can get things done. Neither one of those is completely true. And, both of them miss the reality that there are a lot of things competing for attention at legislatures, and at the end of the day, it's anyone's ability to influence those decision makers that matters. And there are a few things that nonprofits can do that can really help with that. And one of them is simply, Having supporters who are constituents of those key lawmakers and the other is speaking their language. So when I was executive director of the North Carolina AIDS Action Network I, I did not harbor any illusion that many of the Republican lawmakers in control at the North Carolina General Assembly were going to be moved by A lot of the things that motivated me, the fact that I had lots of gay male friends living with HIV, for example. But I did think that they would probably be moved by the idea that it would be great if our kids could grow up in a world where, once they are adults, they're not worried about HIV. And that in the meantime it'd be great if the state wasn't spending as much money dealing with HIV. And having those messages that resonated with the lawmakers really, really made a big difference. Carol: A couple things. Obviously our conversation is all grounded in the context of the United States. I do have folks who listen to the podcast from around the world. So for this topic, it's all within the particular laws and institutions that we have here. You mentioned the IRS, the Internal Revenue Service, that's what it's called. And I think the limits that you were talking about also are particular to one type of nonprofit, which is, I don't know the percentages, but I'm guessing the most common is the [501]c3 within that code. And then of course our politics in terms of our two-party system and all of that. But with all of that in mind I think about what you're saying, taking all of those particularities of the US aside, what you're talking about or really thinking about what matters to the decision makers that you're trying to speak to, and share your message. Share your, trying to move things forward, getting in their shoes, thinking about how they're looking at things where there might be common ground. I mean, that's something that folks could do Lisa: anywhere. Absolutely. No, that's, that's exactly right. And , I have some colleagues in Canada who, who I've talked with about similar things , and different particulars about how the government is structured, what parties might be called, et cetera, but the same basic principles. And I would add that, a lot of these tips for doing better public policy advocacy also apply to just any mission advocacy, including fundraising. I think many of us have had the experience of sitting down and trying to figure out how to translate how we talk about our work and our mission in the day-to-day. The language of whatever major funder we might be applying for funding from and just , speaking their language is half the battle there. Carol: What matters to them and, and how do you, I mean, so that, that. What are some of the, specific or concrete steps that people can take to start being able to shift their perspective and get a better understanding of the folks that they're trying to influence? Lisa: So I mean, always sort of trying to ground ourselves in who's our audience. Who is it? Who, whose help We really need. Because if it was just us , right? If it was just our staff, our board, the people we serve, the people on our email list, then we could just mobilize everyone and do it. But when we need to persuade. People who are on that, on the outside of that us, that we really need to think about who are these people? And , these days it's not that hard. Everyone's got a website. It's , you can start doing things. I think one step that is really useful is to. To do like a really quick survey of the people who receive your email. Your email blasts and simply asks like, Hey, do any of our policy makers at the local level, county, state, or whatever the kinds of divisions of government might be in other countries? Because. a good chance that there are people who are receiving your emails, who do have relationships. And that's important in two ways. The first being they're really gonna know and understand those people a lot better. And second many times the best messenger is somebody who already has a good relationship. With that lawmaker. Sothat's, that's just one, one really simple thing that people can do. Carol: And all those steps that you take to build, build that relationship, start to get to know the person. And I was listening to another podcast last week, and this was more in terms of kind of. , business networking and, but the person had a, had a principle of no ask before one year of, of being in relationship with that person. So not like, okay, I'm gonna knock on your door and I'm gonna ask you immediately for something that, that and, and she used the word political capital, although it wasn't, highlarge p and I don't know what you think about that or. . It, it, that's just, that's just one framework for thinking about it. But what I did appreciate about it was that you need to invest something in that relationship before you're asking something of the person. Lisa: So, I mean, I would not wait a year, not wait a month. Okay. If you need something, you ask, but I, but I definitely concur that it is always better to start building a relationship before you need something. And I, I recently, well a little while back wrote a blog piece that the North Carolina Center for Nonprofits put out. It actually came out shortly after the November election here in the US and it was simply a sort of , why and how to congratulate the people who just won. And , basically saying like, this is a great opportunity just to get on their radar, tell them a sentence about what you do, what you care about, make sure you're gonna get their emails. And it's just, it's going from being a complete stranger. To have that initial point of contact, which can be really important later on when something comes up and you and you really need to have a more substantive conversation. . Carol: So I think some other things I really appreciated that post of yours and cuz it's so simple, right? And anybody can, any, can, anybody can do that. But not everybody's going. Which will be the differentiating thing. And then other simple things ofcel helping, celebrating wins, and thanking someone for, for lots of different things. Just all those little bits and pieces that you can do to start cultivating that relationship. Lisa: That’s exactly right. Carol: Are you saying some of the big mistakes that people make? Lisa: Well, one of the biggest mistakes I've made and have really learned from is Limiting trying to do everything ourselves and limiting opportunities for other people to get involved. , the reality, I, I love that part of your tagline is that, that this podcast is for progressive nonprofits and associations, organizations , wanna achieve big things without being martyrs through the cause. And I have definitely been in positions where I have. Worked myself to the brink of needing to be admitted to the hospital for rehydration and rest. And that is not healthy and it is not sustainable. But it's not necessary either. The reality is that whatever it is that we're doing, whatever. Mission is whatever our immediate goals are, there are other people out there who want us to be successful and there are a lot of people out there who wanna help and we just need to ask. And the reality is that when we give people. Strategic opportunities to help out at whatever level of engagement works for them. Whether it's , let me take three minutes and do something, or let me take three hours and do something once a week. Or let me take three hours one time in my life. Whatever it is, that gives us so much more capacity. to get things done. And so II, I think one of the most important things that any organization can do is think about the best ways to engage their supporters more frequently in more meaningful ways. Carol: , and I appreciate what you're saying around, it's not necessary, but I would also say especially in this work and probably any work, the more people you have involved, the more effective you're gonna be anyway. Oh, absolutely. But I see a lot of times like organizations that let's say they're an environmental organization and they do environmental education and they have this assumption. So we bring these kids out, they're doing environmental education, they're gonna talk to their parents, and their parents are gonna become advocates for the environment. And it's like, there's so many leaps between the one to the other that , maybe one or two of the folks will have that ultimate outcome. But if there's so many little breadcrumbs that you could, you could, or. . Steps that you could offer people, but I find it's hard PE for people to think of what those little steps Lisa: are. Sure. And I, so, yes. And . Okay. . I, I think that there are a, another mistake I see a lot are organizations who have a ton of ideas, let's do this thing and let's do this thing. And here's another thing we can do, and here's another thing that we can do. And all of, and some of those ideas can be fabulously creative and innovative and do a good job of leveraging their strengths, but they aren't necessarily attached to a core strategy. To achieve a particular campaign milestone or particular goal nor are they attached to a more overarching organizational goal of building long-term power. And , I, I, I want to destigmatize the word power because the reality is, Power is what you make of it. And having the power to make the world a better place in whatever way your nonprofit or association is trying to do should be celebrated. And one thing that I help organizations do is take a step back, and this is a place where my training as a historian really helps. Even though you stopped in those archives , you can understand that as a historian you develop this perspective that is simultaneously very long range. And has a ton of attention to details of how change happens over time. Like that is very much what historians do. And it's what successful advocacy organizations Do if they're doing a great job of developing strategy, is they think ahead a few years down the road to the impact they wanna have, and they backfill and think about, okay, well we can't. We don't have the resources we need right now. We don't have the capacity we need right now to achieve this big thing that we wanna achieve by 2025, let's say. But we can get there. Let's think about the steps to take to get there. And it could mean just growing the number of people who. Who are part of your organization, who you're in dialogue with, who you can mobilize in support of a goal. It can mean building out, cultivating a group of people who can talk to the media and be effective storytellers on behalf of your organization. It can. People who can bring some specialized skills that you need. You brought up an environmental piece. It could be that you need the capacity to just get water samples from across the entire state. And it turns out that. That's something where you can teach everyday people to go out and help be water monitors. I have very little expertise in this. I'm just using this as an example. Sure. . . Carol: I was thinking about what you were saying, and I think one of the things that the nonprofit sector does not struggle with is a deficit of ideas. And a deficit of things that they could do or ways that they could try to move their issue forward. But can you give me an example of when folks have taken those ideas but really built a strategy to move their issue forward, and how they've engaged people. Lisa: You like the pregnant pause? . . Well, I, I'm gonna give you an example that I know well which again, is drawing from my own work with the North Carolina AIDS Action Network. When I was hired I was the, the first The, the first full-time staff person the, the first executive director staff of one, and the first thing I did was ask like, Who, who are we? Who are all the people who've ever been involved in this formerly all volunteer thing, and it was a list of 243 people who I either was able to find an email or a phone number for. And I started building and I, I started building for a very particular need that we were aware might be coming down the pike. A program that at the time was called the AIDS Drug Assistance Program had There have been funding crises in many of the states in the US including North Carolina that resulted in waiting lists and and we were anticipating a state budget battle that I needed to prepare for, and I knew that No matter how great a one pager I developed and no matter how much of a collegial relationship I was able to form with the heads of the Health and Human Services appropriation subcommittees that at, at the end of the day, I was gonna need more to convince them. And, and so I started tapping the people who we already had as folks who had ever done something and using them as my starting point to recruiting more people across the state, just needing numbers and also needing breadth of coverage, particularly in the district. Of the legislators who sat on that super important health and human services appropriation subcommittee. So I was very intentional about going to those particular corners of the state and finding constituents of those specific people so that when the moment came around, I kept on chasing after Nelson dollar trying to talk to him, and he kept on not talking to me. and I kept on trying to schedule an appointment. We had a, a list, a deep list of people who lived in his district and we mobilized them to make phone calls into his office. And , gave them a little bit of training about what to say on the phone. And I gave it a couple of days, and then I went back to the office to make an appointment and the legislative aid said, oh , we've been getting a lot of calls about that issue. Let me fit you into his schedule. And II, I mentioned this because a lot of us who got a lot of education might have some letters after our name, are under the illusion that all we have to do is, is. Develop a compelling argument. But actually we need to actually force people to listen to our argument. And , I I I like to say that there can't be persuasion without the pressure to actually listen to you. And so that's a case of doing that base building, that intentional base building to create the pressure for a key legislator to. and that Carol: base building. I mean, I'm on a lot of newsletter lists and, and , get advocacy alerts. And some I respond to and some I don't. And I, I don't consider myself , someone who's really that, that that'sI've, I, I would say probably I'm a reluctant advocate. And so even something like that, I feel like. It takes some steps to get people comfortable to pick up the phone, send an email, do any of those things, and contact decision makers. And it is one of the things that we talked about beforehand, that, that. I think it is relevant in a lot of different circumstances is this notion of a letter, a ladder of engagement. And you talked about before the kind of thing someone can do in three minutes, or maybe it's three hours in a week or maybe it's three hours one time. Can you talk a little bit more about that and, and kind of. cultivate your base. That's a, that, that, there's a lot of things that could go into that Right. To actually have it be successful. Lisa: Sure. . No, I would love to talk about that. And, and, and I will say that when I was with, with N C A N, with the AIDS Action Network, just about every board meeting my staff and I would tell a story about that. Explained the roles of in the end it was me and a community organizer and a communications person. And we would tell a story that demonstrated what each of us did in the organization. But it also talked about our ladder of engagement. And the story would go something like this. , it would go something like Our community organizer went to this event in the community and met a bunch of people and had conversations with them and moved some of those people from being members of the general public to being people who we had the ability to get in touch with. By getting their contact information, getting them signed up to receive our emails. And at the same time he invited them to become part of our volunteer team, where we would ask people if they would make a commitment to. Devote three hours one time in the next three months to helping us out. And so we wanted to give people a sense of, we're not asking for your whole lives, but we also don't wanna bother trying to get you out to things if you're not thinking that. , sometime in the next three months, don't wanna do this. And that was. The beginning of us explaining our ladder of engagement, the first rung is simply putting your foot on that bottom rung and saying let me get on your email list. Let me get on your text list. Here's how to hear from me. But maybe you might grab on higher on that ladder and say, what? I have this intention of becoming a volunteer and stating that And then we would move people. And , I would say the next real step our communications person would move people from being signed up to getting people to take that first click action. The getting people to respond to an action alert, getting people to share something on Facebook and. and we, we really developed a few different ladders of engagement and one of them was more of a base building lane of volunteering with us at community events to do the same thing our community organizer had done. Go around with clip petitions, postcards, et cetera, and bring more people involved. And another piece was more storytelling oriented. Get people involved in telling their stories about why our work mattered to them, and why the policies we advocated for were important in their lives. But the basic concept is to have a predefined. Set of steps that people can take from not being anywhere on the ladder to climbing up that ladder to positions of. Increasing responsibility and importance to the success of what you do? I personally am okay with letting people skip a few steps. Sure. But, not be all the way at the top. Because having those steps is important for getting some proof of concept that somebody is going to be reliable and be effective at particular things. And there's also a certain amount of skill building that one wants to do. If you have someone who's volunteering as a phone banker you want them to be really good at it before they host their own phone bank and need to support other people who are doing it for the first time. Carol: Well, I love the specificity of, of that. , the email one, I think , or contact information. I think a lot of people are probably already doing building their list, building how they get in touch with people. But that next step of the way that you talked about three hours in the next three months it's memorable for one. And it's possible to, it's, it's. I mean, it's a commitment, right? It's not nothing. It's not, I'm just gonna ask you to do this little thing that doesn't really matter to you. It's, it's, it's more than, It's something you need to advocate and actively say yes to. And yet it's not so huge that it becomes you get paralyzed by, oh my God, they're asking me to do something and I'm not ready. . And I, and I love the idea of also that , through that One, you're seeing who does step up. And then two, you're having a chance to build their skills as they, as you, as you go. And then also , seeing, do they follow through? Do they say what they're gonna do? , and I think that's applicable in so many different parts of the work that nonprofits do. Ofsomeone may be trying to build their board and I often talk to groups about, okay, so get them involved in some other way. A committee, a campaign , some specific things that you can see how they are to work with. Do they follow through? Do you have to chase after them? , what, what? What's, what's their work style? Does it fit, is it contributing, is it draining? Before you ask them for something really big, that could have just a huge impact on your organization. Oh Lisa: my gosh. Well, that is excellent advice You're offering Carol , but there's another piece that I wanna put out there. So, and, and really just talking with youI remember. The community organizer who was on staff when I ultimately left CAN he reminded me one day that. The first time he met me, he was an undergraduate at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and I was a guest speaker in a class he was taking. And that was his first awareness of me and what I was doing. And he waited tables at a local diner. andI bumped into him there and then he showed up as a volunteer. And was someone who I saw had some real natural abilities in this area and got him involved more. And then he had a job where we were coalition partners and , I. And finally I was able to hire him at, at one point. But so he went all the way from being a member of the general public in a classroom. And getting involved as a volunteer and then being a volunteer leader to ultimately being staff. And I, I, one thing that I'm really proud of to this day about the program that we built and what our supporter engagement program looked like is the number of people who. Were involved as volunteers or interns who now work in the field. It's actually a really great way to build the profession, a really great way to help people build their leadership skills. Carol: Absolutely. And I helped an association build their ladder of engagement. And this wasn't from a policy point of view, but from a volunteer leadership point of view. And it was just okay, you have the first step is to become a member, maybe, or maybe even the first step is to come to an event that the association holds or, or even. Well, I guess the first step before that would be it'd be in the field and , be, become aware of the organization, come to an event. And then use the resources of the organization to step up to volunteer to be a presenter or write something for, and it could be at the local level or, or regional level. And it's just like one small step, as you say, after another of taking increasing risk. Responsibility. And then in that case for that person building their visibility over the course of their career and their leadership skills. But I think it's also one of the things that we tried to do, as we were mapping that volunteer leader experience and also thinking at each step, what is, what is the person. , not only what they're contributing, but what they're gaining through that experience of the, the, and, and being explicit about the skills that they're able to learn. As they go and how, what they're doing ultimately is contributing to that bigger picture. Lisa: Well that, that piece is huge. And one thing that's always been important to me whenever I do any training, well first of all, I always believe that if you have volunteers, you need to actually spend some time training them before you just throw them into whatever they're doing. But then, yes, please . For me, the training should always have a why as well as a how. Hmm. And have the big picture of what we are doing because here's how this little thing that we're gonna be doing fits into the bigger picture. And then with, with the, how I like to have let me explain it. Let me demonstrate it. Let's have your role play it. Let's evaluate. Okay, now you're ready. And I think that that is super important to the quality of volunteer experience that people have as well as being important to helping to really build those skills. , to me, one sign of a great volunteer program is an intention of. Of having this ladder of engagement where a volunteer who's come three times Has an opportunity to say, yes, I would like to take on the next level of responsibility where I can be the person who trains and coaches new volunteers doing the same thing. And that expands the organizational capacity so much. And These are still folks who might just be giving three hours a month. If you have 10 people doing that, that's a huge amount of capacity that you're adding. . Carol: . And okay. I said that this might happen at the beginning and now it's Lisa: happened and I apologize because my, I was thinking about Carol: us. Okay. I was thinking Lisa: about the, because I'm a parent, I can't turn off my phone, so Carol: No, no, it's no worries. . That, that association situation and. Oh , I've lost it. Oh, well. All right, so you were talking about the next levels of responsibility and the ripple effect. So , when you ask people about those things it really creates . You're, you're, you're creating more and more ripples that they, that they can contribute to. And I think another thing that you were talking about, the why and the how I I. I work with groups helping them with their strategic planning and, and it's a, it's a process, right? There are lots of steps to it. And one of the things that I've realized recently is that I, it's so obvious to me what the why is that I forget to, to tell people. The why of all these steps that we're taking through the process. And so I had an instance recently where there was a, there was just a real misalignment of expectations because I hadn't done a good job of explaining why. And I think for any of us who do the thing that they do you get to be very familiar with it. And it all seems just as obvious. I don't know what anything is, and so it's easy to forget. So I appreciate that of course Lisa: Of course. And what, even though I said it as I just listened to you, I realized that what you are saying applies to a situation I am in right now. Carol: Well, I think I'm gonna make it my mantra for 2023, the why and the how , not just the how. Well, Lisa: Great, great. It is good, it is a good mantra. I just need to apply it to all aspects of my life, not just. That particular one. Carol: Right. Right. And I, I, what I also appreciate about what you're talking about, we started talking about , decision makers that you're trying to influence and looking for how, where the commonality is. But I think it's really with your base, it's also looking for what, what's gonna. Influence them to take action. Those, those smaller steps that you're asking people to take. And some people I was thinking also, I was focusing on skills, but. Some people may be very motivated by that. Other people, it may be other things of, being part of a community that's, that's, that's taking action , seeing those and, and you, I think it's, it's hard to go to wins cuz. I don't know, policy campaigns, there's often, it's, it's often a very long process before you really get the big triumph. So finding those small wins as you go to keep people moving and motivated, but thinking about different things that will engage people and motivate them. People at the same time of being strategic, of not trying to do all the things for all the people. Lisa: No, I mean that, that's right. And, and listen, you're very much in touch with the reality that That policy change can be glacial except when we don't want it to be Right. like having this bullet train of bad policy coming right at us . Carol: Although the people on the other side will probably think, well actually we've been building towards that for the last 50 years. Lisa: No, and and, and you're exactly right. You're a hundred percent right about that. But , I think that The way I and other people who have volunteered have experienced these policy campaigns. Part of the win, again, is just the opportunity to be helping them, let me try that again. I think that for a lot of people, the win is simply being able to do something with other people to help move closer to that eventual win. And because of the isolation and the frustration of being by yourself, being frustrated by something and just feeling helpless. That's terrible. I hate it. , other people hate it. And so for me, and I'm like, look, let's just, let's create, create ways to bring folks together. And I'm, I'm thinking about back, I think it might have been 2016 when the North Carolina legislature passed HB two, which. National press. It was one of these anti-trans bills. And I was pissed. Lots of people were pissed. And , I decided, all right, I gotta do something. What can I do? What's, what's gonna be helpful? And I decided just to take some skills. That I had learned in, in other campaigns to do some grassroots fundraising to try to unseat some of the co-sponsors of that odious bill. And so I just put together this little , grassroots fundraising thing where I invited people to join me. I had a friend who was able to. Like the community room and her neighborhood for us, I did a little training. We made phone calls just to our own personal contacts, and we raised about $5,000 one evening for some of these candidates to help get them elected. And , in the grand scheme of a campaign for State House or state Senate, that's not a ton of money. But it's also, A significant amount of money. And We all felt like we helped with getting a few good people elected, but also it just meant that we could all be in a shared space and do something ourselves. And everyone we called to help make a donation was also someone who we knew was feeling like, oh, this HB two thing stinks. I wanna do something, but I don't know what to do. So it had those multiple layers or ripples as you said, that reallyI knew that, wellI can donate money, but I, I have onlyI work in the nonprofit sector, how much money can I possibly donate? Well , but I know people and they can donate and they know people and they can donate. Right. Carol: And so again, that's that . Pulling people in as you talked about, you don't have to do it all yourself. Absolutely. And that actually part of the joy is. Doing it together. . And bringing people together and creating that sense of community. So I really appreciate that. So I'd like to end each episode by playing a game where I ask you an icebreaker question from my little box of icebreaker questions. So we were talking about skills before. What's a skill that you learned when you were young that you would say that you still use today? Lisa: I'm such a different adult than the kid I was. But there's a really obvious answer. Okay. So the skill that I first used when I was in the fifth grade was simply the skill of not accepting that something has to be the way someone says it has to be. Hmm. And I'm, I'm thinking of a kid, a boy. This is important to the story. A boy from my neighborhood who is in my grade at school decided that girls couldn't play in the fifth grade softball game. And when pressed by me for a reason, why, coming up with this excuse that you had to have a glove, me saying, well, why can't we just borrow gloves? People who are at bat and him saying You have to have your own glove. And so goodie two shoes, I cut recess, to go home and get my own baseball glove. Which I did. But then when I walked out of the door, instead of making a right to go back to school, I made a left. We went to our neighbor's house and knocked on the door and asked to borrow their kids' gloves and went down the street and did it again. I walked back to school with my arms full of baseball gloves. And so at those, those skills of not accepting injustice in the world, doing something so that I get justice for myself, but also taking the step of making sure. , other people have justice too. Carol: I love that story. That's perfect. I mean, here you were in fifth grade, ? Yep. It's taking, standing up for something you believed in and then doing a neighborhood canvas to collect resources for your cause. . I love it. That's great. That's great. So what are you excited about? What's, what's coming up next for you in your work? What's emerging in the work that you're in? Lisa: So I am super excited. I have decided that 2023 should be my year of being part of more teams. And I'm excited about a couple of ways in which I see that happening. One is already happening, which is that I'm going to be leading a team of nonprofit. Professionals from various parts of North Carolina where I'm based and leading them through a three month a three month workshop, advocacy academy that we're calling it to help them develop advocacy campaigns that also help them build long-term power. So that's super exciting to me. And then I'm, I'm really trying to vision into existence. A few more partnerships with organizations and really on the lookout for organizations that are ready to move beyond that. Oh, we've got an idea, we've got an idea. And instead get into the mode of saying, Let's put a pit in this and think about what our desired outcomes are, what we need to get there, actually put together a campaign strategy, take steps, learn the skills we need. And I'm open to doing training and strategic planning, and that's stuff that I've been doing for years. But I, I've recognized that the work that is most fulfilling to me is when I. Have a more sustained engagement with an organization and really be embedded in that team for at least three months to really work alongside folks and ask the questions that prod people and make observations and congratulate people on their great ideas and help make things successful. So I'm, I'm excited. Looking forward and embracing that work. All right. Well, Carol: Thank you so much, Lisa. It was great having you on the podcast Lisa:. Hey, this was awesome, Carol. Thank you so much as well. Carol: I appreciated how Lisa described intentionally building a ladder of engagement. Recognizing that there are a lot of people who want to help and want to get involved but maybe don’t know how. How to shift someone from an email on your mailing list to someone who more actively shows up for your organization. I appreciated the specificity of her ask – are you willing to do something in the next 3 months. And then provide a menu of options – something that takes 3 minutes, something that takes three hours. And by building a pathway of slowly increasing involvement and responsibility you provide folks a way in and you also have the opportunity to get to know them and vet them. See whether they follow through. Do they show up? Do they do what they say they will do? Do you have to chase them? I have seen smaller organizations want to invite folks on to their board immediately. First being on the board should be just one way to be involved in the organization – even if it is an all volunteer group. And you are taking a huge risk if that is your first ask of folks. It is a big ask for one so one that likely folks who don’t know you that well will say no to. AND you don’t know the person very well either and don’t know how they will or will not contribute to the work of the board. Find smaller ways for folks to be involved. Invite non-board members onto board sponsored committees and work groups. And realize that not everyone is going to make their way all the way up the ladder – some will be perfectly happy showing up for a one off event occasionally or responding to an action alert. And this ladder of engagement can be for advocacy – but it can be for a lot of other things as well. I am on a lot of email lists for organizations that I support. And I get a lot of donation request emails from them. What I don’t see as often is small ways for me to get involved highlighted or featured. Most organizations put a lot of time into thinking about how to make it easy for me to give them money. Not as many organizations have put the thought into making it easy for me to give them time in meaningful ways. This is a big missed opportunity. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Lisa, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. And until next time, thank you for everything you do to contribute and make an impact. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it on your favorite social media platform and tag us. We appreciate you helping us get the word out. And until next time, thank you for everything you do to contribute and make an impact. In episode 50 of Mission: Impact, Carol went solo to discuss:
Important Links and Resources:
Transcript: Carol Hamilton: Welcome to Mission: Impact. Today, I'm celebrating my 50th podcast episode. I'm going solo. I'm going to discuss why more money and more staff isn't always the answer. Mission: Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I'm Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. On this podcast, we explore how to make your organization more effective and more innovative. We dig into how to build an organizational culture where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers, and all of this for the purpose of creating greater mission impact. When I'm doing strategic planning, I often ask in my interviews and in focus groups, if you had three wishes for your organization and you could change anything that you want, what would you wish for? And frequently, I would say 90% of the people that I talked to say that they want more funding for more staff. why isn't that always the answer? I think it comes down to the assumption that more money and more staff is always going to be less work. And when it often doesn't our culture really emphasizes growth. Capitalism depends on growth. If the economy is not growing, even if it's just staying steady, folks, fear a recession. we have a proclivity to always want to grow. And certainly growing your organization, having more resources to meet the demand. Further your mission addresses the needs that you're addressing. All of those are certainly good things, and I'm not arguing against any of those. I'm not arguing against scaling your organization to meet the needs. What I'm saying is that people fall into a false fallacy where they equate more staff and more funding as a way to get out of overwhelm, overwork and overcome. With the idea that if we just had more staff, I would have people to delegate to, I would have less on my plate, but what I have found and what I have noticed in all my years of working in the nonprofit sector is that the reality is that nonprofit leaders are very ambitious. They have big dreams and goals. Most vision statements, mission statements are way beyond what that organization can actually deliver. And growing is the only way to move towards that. As I said, the need is often greater than your current capacity. When you grow, when you add them more staff, when you get more funding, it's authentic. Take on new projects, new programs, new services, you try to serve more people. You have a serve, serve additional audiences. You broaden your policy agenda. The work grows with the capacity. In the end you're still overloaded and overwhelmed. And running the organization actually becomes more complicated because you have more people and more things to keep track of. more funding, if we just had more money, everything would be fine. We could hire more people and achieve our goals, but unfortunately, in the scenario above where it does not lighten the load at all. And oftentimes funding rarely covers the full cost of those new initiatives, restricted funding. Doesn't contribute to your overhead. you're expected to find a match for your funding. And now you have more money to attract new reports, to write and new funders to please, as I said before, none of these are inherently bad goals. I'm not arguing against them being able to serve more people and turn fewer people away is important. Being able to provide them with more comprehensive services, being more ambitious in your policy or research agenda. Having more staff to focus on fundraising, marketing, operations, HR, financial systems, all the things that it takes to run an organization. All of these are good things, but the assumption, as I said that I often hear embedded, is that if I just have more staff just have more funding. When I get that, I will finally be able to relax. Whether it's as a board member, as an executive director, as a lead program person or the development director. The assumption is my to-do list will be shorter. I can finally take that long postponed vacation. I can feel less guilty about taking care of myself, but unfortunately that's only true if you choose not to grow the amount of work with the growth in staff and instead redistribute the work for the pieces of the work pie to be small. The pie has to say the same size and mostly what's embedded in more staff, more funding is certainly growth and therefore does not get you out of the overall. On episode 38. I explored a related question. What if you did less? If you haven't listened to that, I invite you to, and I also recommend Third studios, recent blog posts, headlines of “what if you did less,” that also looks at our current state of burnout and reflects on why just individual responses to the current state we're in is just not enough. I will post the link to that blog post in the show notes. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and with my guests. You can find a full transcript of the show as well as any links and resources that I mentioned in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production, as well as April Koester of a 100 Ninjas for her production support. And if you enjoyed this episode, I really would love it. If you would share it with a colleague or friend, we appreciate your help in getting the word out; and the easiest way to do that is to go to pod.link.com/mission impact. Again, that's podlink, mission impact one word, and use that URL to share the show. Then your friend or colleague can listen to the show on whatever their favorite podcast player. Thanks again. I appreciate your time. In episode 48 of Mission: Impact, Carol and her guest, Chyla Graham discuss:
Guest Bio: Chyla Graham is a certified public accountant with over ten years of experience helping nonprofit organizations realign and thrive. Chyla started her company, CNRG Accounting Advisory, to empower more nonprofit organizations. To date, she has secured over $2 million in funding for several organizations and helped many more streamline to better serve their communities. Chyla credits flying trapeze for keeping her physically and mentally strong, and reminding her that you can’t succeed in life alone. Every trapeze artist needs someone to be “on line” holding the ropes. Chyla likes that metaphor for trapeze and for business, and her greatest pride is being “on line” for her clients. Important Links and Resources:
Transcript: Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Chyla Graham. Mission Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I’m Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. On this podcast we explore how to make your organization more effective and innovative. We dig into how to build organizational cultures where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers. All for this is for the purpose of creating greater mission impact. Chyla and I talk about why it is important for nonprofit leaders to get comfortable with their organization’s numbers, why you have to consider the wider context when you are looking at your organization’s financial statements, and why it is so critical to connect your organizational goals with your financial goals. Welcome Chyla. Welcome to the podcast. Chyla Graham: Thanks for having me, Carol. How are you doing today? Carol: I am doing well. I'm doing well. We're supposed to have rain all day and all day tonight. So it's just an indoor day. Carol: Yeah. So I like to start each podcast with a question around what drew you to the work that you do, what motivates you and what would you describe as your why. Chyla: What drew me to the work was, I think I'd like to say it's like the convergence of several things. So I have always been interested in numbers. I'm an accountant. It is the thing I do. It's always the thing I've been interested in and, or I guess more so like the idea of money, like, Ooh, this is a cool thing. And I went from, I was a. So I'd be the one I, Hey, Carol, don't you want to donate $500 and that was terrible at it. Absolutely terrible, but loved learning more about the work nonprofits were dealing with that money. And so that led me to say, okay, well maybe that's where I want to go. And also seeing the idea of Enron worlds com I, all of that was happening while I was in college. And so I was just like, So this is the thing. And so it really made me more passionate about helping non-profit leaders get comfortable reading the numbers, asking questions about their numbers, because I just, I was just like, this could be any of you. Carol: Yeah. And that, that comfort level with reading the numbers, just asking questions about them. I feel like. Very few people go into the nonprofit sector to manage money. Right. If, if they did, they would've gone into finance and they would've made a lot more money. Right. So they want to help people. They want to help animals, the environment, and some cause. So what do you do to help people get a little bit more comfortable about interacting with them, the money that flows through their organization, then the numbers that keep track. Chyla: I am nosy. So I think by nature, I'd like, tell you more about why you did the thing. And so I try to get them back to explaining themselves not from an idea of like, I'm committed. I want to know why you went to Starbucks. I actually don't. It makes no difference to me why you went to Starbucks, but I want them to be clear on why they went to Starbucks. I want them to be able to understand that. And so for me, it's being able to say to them, Hey, let's go through your chart of accounts. So we do several things, like as energy, we do several things. We do accounting services where we help them. We do some of that coding, but most of our work, I would say most of our clients are actually in the consulting and education space where we're speaking. Just talk me through these reports as you read them. And in that way, trying to highlight for them. In their own words. What is the thing that works or doesn't work for them in terms of reading the financials? If they're like that, actually I have no idea what any of these pages mean. I just know I get it every month and I'm supposed to present it to the board. And so in that way, trying to dig in with them to say, oh, well, tell me what questions the board asks, tell me what questions you have every month, even though you get these reports. And so trying to help them say, oh, Let me put a list together or what are the things that come to mind? Because sometimes we just don't know where to start. And I think if we start with like, well, what is the thing that comes up every month? Whenever I talk to these people, it gives us a good entryway to say, oh, all right, well, how could I reframe this question? Or what else would I, should I look at to like, get an answer to this question? Carol: What would you say are some of the common questions that people have whether they are comfortable reading the financial statements or not, or don't even know what a chart of accounts is? Chyla: Yeah, I would say the most common question is, do we have enough money? It's really all that call that everyone wants. And I was like, is there enough money and context, man? I like to say financial statements don't make a difference if they're not in context or in relationship to something. And so, well, I don't, I don't know if you have enough money. What is your, what were you planning on having? So how does this compare to what you budgeted that might tell us? Do you have enough money? Because we can see how far apart you are or should we be comparing this to blast? If, like month to month things shouldn't change. And so that's the, we were like, Hmm, we have a lot less than we did last month. We don't have enough money. So I reframed it in that way to say like, well, tell me what it is that you're trying to find out. Because some organizations it's not about last month, it's more about last year because they are pretty cyclical. And so they're like, same time last year. How did that look? This is the indicator. And one of the things we started doing more and more is. I'm trying to help clients come up with their own benchmark of how much money per month they should. They, they have directed as their target. I know I liked them for like three to six months. It makes me feel comfortable, but maybe for their organization, they're like three. That's not, it's not a comfortable place. And then trying to say, okay, A thousand dollars, a hundred thousand thousand feels too small for this example, a hundred thousand dollars in the bank. And each month you're expecting to spend 50,000 you're two months worth of cash. And so just saying like, let's do simple math on this. We have this much in the bank. We know, we expect to spend this much each month, let's come up with that calculation so they can say, okay, yes, we have enough. And because two months is comfortable or no, we don't because two months is just not. Carol: Your firm offers accounting services, but you, as you said, you're more in the consulting and coaching and you really focus on strategic financial management. Can you say a little bit about what that is and why it's important for organizations? Chyla: Yeah, so I think I'll share it. She does financial management. After the board has identified some goals. Cause it makes no sense for me to say, like, these are your goals. If your board is like, well, you actually have a different vision in mind. So after your board has identified what the goals are for the next year, next three years, having a conversation about, well, how does that impact our finances? So sometimes we see organizations who say we need to expand our programs. We want to be in this many vocations, or we want to serve this many more people. And for me, that begs the question of what would it take to get there? Does it take more staffing? Does it take more computers? Does it take, like, what is it, what are the pieces? The tangible pieces that it actually takes to get there and help them build out. Okay. Is that a realistic plan? Because sometimes we say. Self included, guilty of being, I want to do all these amazing things and, what is the budget? Actually, maybe we should scale back accordingly. And trying to help them reframe that to say, okay, if this is the goal, what would it take to build the infrastructure we need to get there? Because sometimes it's not even about, we need more people, it's I need computers that don't die on me. I need something that's faster, stronger, whatever it is. I'm really trying to say that. Let's think that through and let's plan ahead. And if we look at your, if the fundraising goal, we want to raise a million dollars. Okay, cool. Let's look at your current trends to say, how do we manage those so that we can think of what are some times we should be, be heavier in the fundraising? Because we know from a cash perspective, we actually need this money to show up. And saying, let's plan that three months in advance, next week we will not have any money. I don't know who would have known this. And I'm really trying to say, let's just take a step back. Let's take, think about all the goals that we have, all the big picture items and make that a real, realistic thing and say like, Pencil bank. What, what do you have for me? And I find that that makes it a little bit easier putting those trends together because sometimes organizations don't, when I say we have an April development plan, I know we need to fundraise. And I just know I have to hit this number. When do you need to hit some of this number though? do you really need to emphasize in the first quarter of the year? And say like, okay. In March, I need to be talking to Petra. Has owners submitting all my grant applications that have X turnaround time because in June is where we see a real. We're short on cash and we want to know we've had those conversations already, as opposed to saying, I know it's May 31st. Would you like to write me a check for tomorrow? Thank you. that's what I think of as that's your CJ financial management. It's helping them see the big picture, helping them plan out. When do we need to start some of these activities, especially if there's not already a plan in place, because maybe there are more people involved that we need to integrate into this plan and help them think. That board member. I need to give them steps like this. It's not just like, oh, you can just fundraise. No, no, they can't. Well, not necessarily. Maybe they can. And really saying like, we need to build this out as a plan, as opposed to just like this morning, I woke up with this really great idea. Carol: Yeah. It's interesting that you talk about stepping back and seeing the big picture, because I feel like. And in a lot of ways, that's the role of consultants for pretty much any aspect of the organization, whether you're working on finance or fundraising or marketing or operations, it's often, let's take a step back. Let's see where we are. Let's look ahead, look back where, where were we a year ago? And just helping people pause and have some perspective on what they're doing. You talked about how context is really important. And obviously every, every organization is a little bit different, but are there some key financial things that board members and staff members should really be tracking for the organization? You've mentioned cash as one. Yeah. What other things are really important? Chyla I would say. Looking at the trends of when are there peak seasons in terms of revenue coming in, even if that's not actually fascist more of the pledges idea what, what are those timetables? And also on the expense side, what's the timing of things, because sometimes we. We assume we have to pay for something earlier or later. And that's just the piece that causes more stress and angst. And I have, I've worked in the non-profit environment. I've, I've been on all sides. I've been the auditor. I've been the auditee I've been, now in the consulting space. And being able to say, actually, I'm going to call up this vendor and say, can we make this payment on this day? And really thinking about it, to say, Hmm, are there payment arrangements we need to be making I've there's one organization we support where their board wants to know about accounts receivable, because for them they want to know, is there someone on here that we have a relationship with that us as a board member, this is the way we could support. And really thinking if it pledges something that your organization does and your board members are helping you get those touches, how do you delegate to them? And how can you help them say, AR is really high and we would love you to, this is the place that you can think about. They should also be thinking about the relationship items have to one another. I said, I was, I've been in the oddest space before, and I remember one client. We had a good meeting, there was not anything intentional, like miss dealings or theft. But their finance director was still overwhelmed. It was just like I'm just going to put in a number. I think this is how much we should have. I think revenue should be about here. And I like to think about what's the relationship between the numbers. really trying to say like, well, in theory, if our donations went up, we should either see an increase in. Well, we should see an increase in accounts receivable. One of those two things should happen. And really trying to say like, okay, I didn't see an increase. What does that mean? Where, what happened to this magical money that we received and really try thinking through what are those relationships, same for, if our expenses are going up, does that mean we either have a high account payable? The people we owe. we have a new loan. Do we have, or less cash? . Have you seen the movie? All the Queen's horses. Okay. I can't remember what city in Illinois, but it's about theft and mismanagement. And what happened is the finance manager for this city is a small, small town. I mean, I was taking out loans for. And it was said that it was going to be for rotor repair and all these things, but the people kept writing over potholes and she kept saying to me, that was a great indicator. You're like, well, if we were getting loans to do repairs, why aren't the streets repaired? Right. Right. And just making those, you didn't have to do a math calculation. You didn't have to say, I need to know how much meat, how much we borrow. Exactly. But you could say, even if we're not seeing progress, it'd be, see the people outside. Like we all know construction on roads doesn't necessarily feel like it happens fast, but do we see people working? No. Well, what happened to the money? And just making those types of conclusions or relations to say, I might not be able to do any fancy math or any quick math, but. This number feels like it should go up or down, or I should see we have new hires or I should see, we've got more supplies in the closet, something to say, like, these things tell us that this isn't just a made up number someone isn't just like, oh, that looked like a good route. It's actually saying like, oh yeah, we got a lot. I see where that load proceeds. Carol: Yeah. it makes sense. What would you say are some. Differences in the finances for nonprofits. it's important for staff members and board members to understand. , different from a for-profit organization. Cause a lot of board members, they, they, and then they may actually be recruited right. For their, for their business background. But what are those differences that are important to be aware of? Chyla: Yeah. the first one that typically trips people up is the name of. And the statement of activity for a nonprofit is the income statement for a for-profit business. And remembering that language is like, what are we doing? Is it an activity? How do we make money? We did a thing. We made money or we lost money. remembering like, oh, what did we, what does that mean? And then the same financial position is the balance sheet. it's at a point in time. On this day, we have this much happening. that is a really easy place that people were just like, ah, I don't really know. Another thing that I think people should be mindful of is the commitments to. From donors. in the for-profit world, we are typically providing a service or providing a product and we can say, hi, I did this thing for you. Please pay me. And in the nonprofit world, we are really exchanging goodwill. We were saying, would you commit to supporting this message mission? And sometimes we say, like, we ask people to commit a pledge. And one of the things I like to say. When should you record it? like in a for-profit you'd be like, listen, they said they were, they started that contract is their end. And in the nonprofit space, you have to say, let's take a step back. If this person was unable to. What would our next steps be? If your next steps would be like, we are going to Badger them, we are going to make sure we get that money. Great record. Yes. That is revenue. That is yours. But if you're like, you know what, it's not worth it to lose a relationship. Or if you feel like we would lose a relationship over this and just don't, don't record it because in essence you're, if you're not going to follow through on it, or there's no requirements to follow through, you would say, no, that's not. There are instances you could definitely say like, okay, maybe we'll put a little buffer. We'll say maybe we won't collect some of it. And those are things that are for-profit businesses. that's a similarity. A for-profit business would be like, I messed up invoice you, but here's how much I probably won't get. And a non-profit in some cases would say the same thing to say, like, we are committed, we are going to follow up, but we recognize some of this. We might just not get it. And so being able to see. Have some of those conversations say like, are we allowing for any of these sites and you have a business background to say, like, see the invoices aren't going anywhere. And I don't know who these people are, I can't call them. should we just have a conversation as a whole to say, what are our thresholds? What's our risk tolerance? So that. they can be good stewards. That's part of why they came into this. They're like, I've got a big background. I know what it takes to collect some money. And I know sometimes maybe it's just not worth it to say, like, those are some places that they could really chime in and be a part of and have like an engaging conversation. I think another difference is that trips up everyone, even if they're in the for-profit world, becomes the idea of donor restrictions. And what, what does that mean? What do you do? And don't the restrictions just mean the donor said, you need to use my money to buy, to build a gazebo. You can't use it for anything, but this was evil. And that that's a donor restriction that is saying, well, you can only use it for this thing versus. Something that's not restricted where there's just like, here's some money if you'd like to buy it. Cause those are those, great. Like you want to pay salaries also. Great. And being able to say like, well, what, what is that? And why does it matter? It matters because more and more. We're seeing what I'm seeing in grant documents and donor documents. If you don't spend the money for the specified rean, or by the specified time, you need to return the money. And it's always good to have a handle on, Hey, what's money that we might either need to spend by a certain time. there might be a time restriction or purpose requirements or we might think about, do we have to return. And should we not count right now? Those are, those are pieces. I feel like we are constantly changing and have a nice, high-level idea of how much of this might mean we need to turn back and how much of this we have to commit to a cause. In some cases it might not be relevant. I say, because Debo, because I've seen it, I've seen where people are like I'm donating $5,000 for it. Cause Eva, and then no one else. maybe money for it. Cause he wants to, we're like, that is not enough money to eat. Can you call that donor and see if we can get that money unrestricted? And those types of things are really good. I'll be monitoring. Carol: Yeah. And I think just in terms of those grant timelines and, and the time restrictions, it seems like that's something where, if you're running up against it, reaching out to the grant maker and seeing, can this, can, are you flexible on this, this, this, or, do or die can be helpful. I mean, I think the other one, the other mistake that I've seen people make is to interpret non-profit as no profit. Well, yes. And, and really believing like, oh, we can't make any money. We can't have anything left over. what, what do you, what would you say about that? Chyla: I try to remind them what would you do in your house at the end of the month? And then rent was due the next day. You, that wouldn't be a comfortable place. And thinking of your organization in that way, we don't want to go to zero every month because the next thing will arrive. And really thinking of it as you're not hoarding. You're not there. You're not necessarily saying like, ah, we're just building our reserves for no reason. Everything has a reason. And they're identifying that we're building our reserves because we want to launch a new program in three years. And , no, we're not spending it today, but we know it's going to come up because it's part of our strategic plan or thinking through like our staff gets, it has to get paid like every, every pay period, right? Oh yeah. We should probably have some money in the bank to do that. reminding them that it's not about. Hoarding of resources. It's more about what is the timing of some of the things that we have coming up to complete our mission and what do we want to make sure that we do so that it's not a surprise? That's the whole point of having to think about how much cash we have so that you can do the unexpected. And part of some nonprofits is trying to think of better ways to do that. And sometimes that doesn't come with any funding and you have to say, we need to have the money on hand. And reminding yourself like this is to do something that a funder doesn't yet see the value in, but we do know it's important. And just reframing. This isn't an arbitrary number. We're not picking three months for no reason, we're picking it because where it's, if something were to happen and we want it to still provide the services that we do, we would be able to, and our community wouldn't go without, because suddenly we, we didn't have it. getting beyond ourselves and beyond like what people might perceive us to do. I think that's where that comes in. People are like, well, they're going to see that we have so much money. They will see that you are responsible people and thought to save money for salaries and for program materials. That's great. I would love them to see what you are doing. Carol: Right, right. Yeah. it's all, it's all about. What's the purpose and what's the goal? What's the strategy? at the end of each episode, I like to play a little game where I ask a random icebreaker question. I have a box of them. I always put out three before the interview and then pick one. what's something about you that surprises people when they first hear it? Chyla: Usually that I'm an accountant Carol: Say more, say more. Chyla: That is typically the thing that people are surprised about, which I find amusing. More because I think I get perceived as very pernal and high want to have a conversation with you. And I'm like, I am, I'm definitely an introvert. Definitely. But I manage it really well. And I'm like, I can do the people thing. And I remember I used to have a quote. I was like, I've met my word quota. I can't talk to any more people. I think that piece has been the piece that, cause I don't tell people, I don't usually tell people work. What are you doing? I'm like, oh. That's a boring conversation starter. it's usually the last thing I share about myself. And that's typically something that I'm like, oh, I did not guess that. Carol: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've met a lot of accountants that did not fit the stereotypical mold of whatever, whatever people perceive of as and it's great. It's great. Yeah, and I also, I also saw something recently where somebody described themselves as a social introvert. And I was like, I can relate to that because I get it a lot too. Like people aren't you talking to hell with all these people. Yeah. But then I need to recover. I'm like, Chyla: Saturdays are typically my day. I'm like, you want me to do things with people? Well, they would, they would be in my house? No. Oh, absolutely. I don't know if I can, at least when I come to my husband, like I can, I can manage this. But otherwise. Carol: what are you excited about? What's coming up next for you and what's emerging in the work that you're doing? Chyla: We are doing webinars for our. Online course. So helping nonprofits get more money, greater impact by just being more transparent about their finances. I'm really just digging into, like, what does that mean? How does it look? Because people get scared. People get nervous. They're like, I don't know what that I don't want to do. I don't know if we should be transparent and you should. But helping them figure out what that framing looks like and what that means, because we've definitely. With our clients that we work with when they've been able to say, this is what we're doing with the money, or this is a thing that you're looking to build, we've been able to one, identify more resources available because wow, thank you for telling me what you were going to do. There's money available for that one thing. So that's that piece. And there's also just the idea of, there are some donors who just want that level of transparency and they're like, oh, you can tell them. Cool. Here's some more money. And so just being able to do that is really exciting. It's been a thing that's been in the works. I'm just like, oh, Kimmy. And I have to do it now. Oh, okay. So they interpreted to me 'cause like a sport infer and the food lever baker in me, it's like, I have a slice of cake that is ready. I'm like, you're going to do it. And then you're in a warm beer cake. So the caramel is nice and soft and runny. And you're going to be like, look, you've finished. The thing that you were really worried about. So that is what's out on the horizon. Carol: So the, you mentioned the course, what's the, what's the course that you're offering. Yeah. Chyla: So, well, the course itself will be about other sitting financial management from a nonfinancial perspective. So we'll go through the first year mission. Why? Because I feel like if you, if you forget, when you straight from that, it becomes really hard. You're like, why are we doing this again? And so just recentering your mission is in that conversation about budgets and finances and all of those things, and then thinking about your priorities. So how do we, how do we rank the budget? How do we think about the chart of accounts, all those things that indicate what matters to the organization. Then we go on to actually using some tools. And so I don't necessarily need anyone to become a bookkeeper or a QuickBooks expert, but being able to say, all right, I know what a bank reconciliation is and what I should look out for, because again, part of this is managing those people and just being able to say like, Where should this be? Or how could I reframe that question? Because sometimes it's hard to talk to your bookkeeper or accountant. Cause there's like, I don't know if he spoke the same language. I don't know what they're talking about and just giving them some tools to help frame that. And then finally, it's about storytelling. How do we look at the financial statements and rephrase some of the things? How could we show some things differently? So not changing any numbers, but just updating the presentations to something that's more. Palatable more understandable for the people who actually need to read them and make decisions based off of Carol: That sounds great. That sounds like a really, really needed resource for the sector. So thank you for creating that. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was great to talk to you. Chyla: Thanks for having me. Carol: I appreciated Chyla’s point that as a board member you don’t necessarily need to be a financial expert but you do need to pay attention to when things don’t add up. Not just literally the numbers – but when the narrative does not match what is in the numbers. A staff person says donations have increased but the numbers don’t match. The story is we have taken out loans for more staff but no one else has been hired. Where is the money going? Often it is about paying attention and asking the hard questions. And it is often because the people tasked with managing the finances are in over their heads – not necessarily because anyone is doing any malfeasance. Although of course that does happen in the sector and you certainly don’t want to be on a board when the organization gets in the paper for fraud or embezzlement on the part of staff or volunteers. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Chyla, her full bio, the transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it on your favorite social media platform and tag us. We appreciate you helping us get the word out. Until next time! In episode 47 of Mission: Impact, Carol and her guest, Julia Campbell discuss:
Named as a top thought leader and one to follow by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell is a nonprofit digital consultant on a mission to make the digital world a better place. Host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast, she’s written two books for nonprofits on social media and storytelling, and her online courses, webinars, and talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and raise more money online. You can learn more about Julia at www.jcsocialmarketing.com/blog Important Links and Resources:
Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Julia Campbell. Julie and I talk about ethical storytelling – what it is and why it is so important for nonprofits to consider as they share stories of their impact, the misconceptions people have about social media and its place in your organization’s marketing mix, and why leveraging your owned marketing assets is key. Mission Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I am Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. Welcome, Julie. Welcome to the podcast. Julia Campbell: Thanks so much for having me, Carol. Carol: So I'd like to start each conversation with, what drew you to the work you do? What motivates you and what would you say is your why? Julia: I have always been very attracted to social justice work and social justice issues. And when I was in high school, I was involved. I couldn't even vote, but I was involved in the Clinton gore campaign. I started a recycling program at my high school. There was no recycling program. I just have always been very involved in activism and changing the world for the better. It sounds simplistic and cliche, but I really always have been. And then in college I volunteered at several different places in Boston. I went to school in Boston. And decided to enter the Peace Corps. So I was in the U.S. Peace Corps, for two and a half years after I left, , after I graduated from college. And that was where I really worked, started working with international NGOs and other organizations, and also started fundraising and truly understanding what it takes to make a difference in a culture because I feel like, I feel like with the Peace Corps, especially. I'm just speaking for myself, but I also feel like this is a, this is almost a, how people perceive us is we do have this white savior complex where we go into these countries and we think we're gonna change everything and make everything better. And what I really learned was that you have to. Immerse yourself in a culture and listen and hear the stories and truly understand what's going on. And you can't just say I'm gonna come in here and build a well and raise a ton of money for a well, and then leave. And that really opened my eyes because a lot of the NGOs were doing that. So when I got home, I thought I'm going to work. For nonprofits, but really help them understand how they do fundraising, how they do marketing and, and if it is maybe harmful to the communities that they're trying to serve. So I've worked in domestic violence. I've worked in international relations. I've worked in early childhood rape ISIS centers. I've pretty much run the gamut from large organizations. I worked at Boston university where. I graduated. And then I've worked in really small organizations with tiny budgets. And I think the work that the nonprofit sector does is so incredibly vital, no one else is gonna do it. Okay. The government can't do it or won't do it. The private sector won't do it. So we're filling this really important gap and solving these problems. And I just feel really strongly that people need to be advocating for the sector. And I'm just, I'm just such a strong advocate for it. Carol: I realized when I was looking at your bio that, that you were a returned Peace Corps volunteer, and I think you're probably at least the third guest that had that, that experience, that background, Julia: We always end up a nonprofit don't we? Carol: AmeriCorps, I really appreciate, the perspective that you got there helped you come around to how stories are used, and how they can be used for harm. There were a lot of common practices, , and I'm not a fundraising person, but, just observing, being in the sector in fundraising that now people are questioning and saying, that's really not exploited ethically. It's very exploitative, and so I'm curious about how you're helping organizations shift that and tell their story, but not take advantage of the people that they're actually trying to help. Julia: There's an entire. tidal wave in the sector right now. I think because younger people are starting to take the reins and younger generations do not put up with things that we have put up with in terms of exploitation or unethical storytelling, unethical practices, and they will call you out. what we learned in terms of practices and fundraising, when we all, I didn't study fundraising, but I read a ton of books. I took a lot of courses. I went to a lot of conferences. Mostly predominantly taught by white people. What I learned was you have to pull these heartstrings, you have to tell these sob stories. You have to start from a place of, of deficit. And it's called deficit thought basically. So then I started to study. I didn't feel very good about it. And I started to talk to other people. That we're doing fundraising work and saying, no, there are stories of hope and inspiration, and there are, they don't need to be tied in a bow. You don't need to say, oh, everything's, , grand and Mary Poppins ask. And it's just, it's not the reality, but still, if you think of the Sarah Locklin, the arms of the angels where she's singing and there's all these abused animals around her. And it's the shots of these dogs and cats. And it's always played on cable TV and they, the, as BCA pulled that ad because they did raise money from it initially. But if you're constantly doing that storytelling, it. It's not only unethical, but it's very fatiguing and people get numb to it and people, they wanna turn it off. They grab the remote. There are whole stories of people saying, oh, that ad came on and I had to like, actually leave the room and I couldn't deal with it anymore. The other thing is the. Giving the person that is sharing their story agency and making sure that they understand that this is not necessarily their defining moment. This is just something that happened to them. The terminology now has really shifted. And I think it's interesting where we don't say. And I'm still working on this and I'm not perfect as well. We don't say homeless person, we say a person experiencing homelessness. We don't say domestic violence survivor, we say person experiencing domestic violence or person living with a disability or person living with misuse and substance abuse. The terminology has changed. We don't make the experience that someone is having be the focal point of their whole life and it doesn't define them. And then there are, there are all sorts of interesting studies and all sorts of people talking about ethical storytelling using terms like at risk vault, vulnerable. I think you can still use marginalized populations. It's changing all the time. I think it's interesting. And to me, I don't think it's about canceling people or telling people they're wrong. If they use a certain term, it just opens up a conversation for something that I think is really interesting. And I think the sector does need to do a lot of introspection into how we might have, we shared all of these videos of kids in Africa with bellies descended and flies around their face. And if you look at the work of charity water in particular, one of my, one of my favorite charities, you can love them or hate them. Their whole perspective was we wanna make giving joyous. We wanna make people happy. We don't wanna guilt people into giving. We wanna make people excited and proud to be a part of what we're doing, and that's gonna help retain donors. And that's gonna help people continue to give, because if they're constantly guilted into giving, it's not good, so we wanna make people feel great about giving and feel proud about being part of the cause. Carol: One of the areas in addition to storytelling, or I guess it's not really in addition, it's a way to deliver a story. You work a lot with helping nonprofits with their social media and social media presence. And I feel like it's an area that can really trip people up. What would you say are some of the key things that people need to consider in pursuing a social media strategy? Julia: They need to consider how much time it truly takes to be successful. We need to get out of this mindset that it's free. So Carol, I could come to your house and give you a puppy for free. I mean, I don't know if you want a puppy, Carol: I got one of those free puppies and he cost me like $150, the first visit to the vet. Julia: Exactly. And then walking every day and feeding them. It's like, technically, maybe having a kid is not free because of the medical bills, but you could technically have a child in the middle of the woods for free, but then of course, there's so much upkeep there's upkeep, there's taking care of what you've created. So I always give the analogy of the puppy because. Yes, it sounds great on the surface. It's free, but your time is not free. Your effort, your energy, your bandwidth, none of that is free. And then also of course, as we know now to really get more visibility, you do have to play the ad game. Whether or not you think it's ethical to pay Facebook. I'm constantly going back and forth on that, but there's also lots of other platforms, YouTube, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TikTok. There's so many other platforms that we can explore. So what I do, and I'll just summarize it really quickly, I teach nonprofits the four pillars of social media and management because, you can't say I'm just gonna get on TikTok without doing all four of these things. And so something else is gonna have to come off your plate. So the first pillar is Listening, going there, being on let's just take TikTok. For example, being on TikTok, listening, watching, lurking around following people, seeing what. See, like taking webinars, reading blog posts really figuring out, okay, what's going on on this platform? What would my audience wanna see on this platform? That takes time. The second pillar is Content Creation. You have to create the content and you have to create it specifically for the platform. What you put on LinkedIn is not the same as what you're gonna put on YouTube, it's not the same as what you're gonna put on Instagram. So you need to have that content creation strategy specifically for the platform. And then the third pillar is Community Management. This is following people, looking at who's following you, going in, responding to comments, responding to your DMs, interacting in conversations, going into chats, being present because social media is a two-way street. You can't just use it as a billboard or a newspaper ad. Then the fourth pillar is Measurement and Analysis. Really taking time. This doesn't take three hours a week to do measurement analysis. If you're on one platform, you can quickly just do a scan and say, are we growing? Are we not growing? What posts were popular, which were not popular? What happened this week? Just do a scan of it. And then the key with pillar four is the reporting out, because what we don't wanna do is do our work in a vacuum. And we wanna report to the board. We wanna report to the staff. We wanna report to executive directors because we wanna show them this is actually work. A lot of them still think it's tweeting about what you had for lunch. I have never once tweeted about what I had for lunch ever. I probably have put a picture of a cappuccino or something on Instagram, but I've never done that. And that's the whole misconception that this is not an actual job. This doesn't require actual skill, but it really does. So every time you think about it, should I be on this platform? Should I adopt another platform? Are you doing those four pillars? Are you accomplishing those on the ones you're already on? And then if you're not, you get, you get those ducks in a row before you jump on another platform. Carol: When I was thinking about, just for my consulting practice, how I use social media and that the second, the first thing that you said of how much time do you have to. To give to it. I was like, okay, to be reasonable, I'm gonna pick one. I do LinkedIn, that's it. Julia: And LinkedIn is great for B2B. Like that's the best place to go for B2B. Carol: I just felt like the other places it's like probably not where people are hanging out. Julia: , but, and also actually it's a really good point. I just had. A podcast interview with my friend, Angela Pitter, who's a LinkedIn expert. And what she said was, you have to think about what people are doing on the platforms. Like you said, they're not really on Facebook looking for people to connect with professionally. They're hanging out with their friends, they're watching cat videos. They're doing fun things with friends and family. They're looking at the AB pictures. They're not necessarily using it the way people use LinkedIn. So I think that's smart. I think that's a very smart, strategic move. Carol: The only thing I practically go on Facebook for anymore is to see what picture I posted or what I posted eight years ago. Julia: I like the memories to look at, I like memories. I always wish that I could get off Facebook. I can't escape it, but I have Facebook groups that I run. So I can't. Right. Exactly. I can't officially leave. Exactly, exactly. But I do, I do spend a lot less time on it lately. Carol: And I think that for a long time I was just posting, right. Then I heard the phrase, the posting and ghosting, and that's a sense and ghosting. Then more recently just, I started doing the other things that you're talking about by actually getting in their comments ending on people's engaging and, it was more satisfying actually to, feel like you're, getting to know people that way. And actually, I think we connected originally cuz you had posted something about getting on podcasts and I was like, oh I've got one and we yeah. Talked to each other. Julia: That's what I love. It's like an actual LinkedIn memory Michelle received. Right. Really? Yeah. I posted that. I said I'm really interested in being on more podcasts this year. I have my own podcast. I'm just putting it out there. I had so many introductions. The LinkedIn community is so generous and so welcoming and just so happy to make connections with other people. I found it to be a much warmer community than Facebook. Carol: Which is ironic, right? Julia: It's ironic, but all of the CEOs, they make their own decisions about what they allow on the platform and what they don't and what they make go viral and what they don't. And I think Facebook, especially the more provocative, the more angry you are, the more negative you are. That's what is going viral and getting eyeballs. And that's why that's what we're seeing. Carol: One of the misconceptions that you talked about was that it's, well, it's just free. It's something that somebody can do on the side. What are some other misconceptions that people have about social media and their marketing strategies? Julia: I think there's, there's so many, one that I would say is that it can substitute for other things that are working. Social media is really the icing on the cake. It's really one of those things that people have definitely built their business on. But how I feel about it is I feel like you should be using it and leveraging it to bring people into other owned platforms. So your email list, maybe subscribing to your blog. Making a donation on your platform. You need to be consistently bringing people over to your owned platforms because social media is rented land. They can and will and do pull the rug out from under us very frequently. Do you remember when Facebook pages started? I will never Forget this cuz I was working at a nonprofit and my executive director called me and said we have to get a Facebook page. And I was on it, , because I had, I still had my college account, so I could still like get on it. I wasn't in college at the time, but I had an EDU address and I said, I don't know, like, is this a marketing place? Is, is all college kids, like just talking about stuff, but. She said, no, it's gonna be free and it's gonna be, it's gonna replace websites and it's gonna be a free way that we can talk to all of our fans and followers. People still think that. And to me, I think if we look at the data, you really can only reach a tiny percentage of your fans and followers. You use social media, not to say that if you have built a community, you should leave, but we need to be consistently bringing people over to our email list and our own. Properties where we can then build a deeper relationship with them. And also you can bring an assumption you've earned and its permission based on your email list. You can bring that email list anywhere you can change providers. If you don't like this one provider, you can communicate with these people. You can use that as huge leverage. And if you, about the way. We use email. It's a much more intimate experience than social media, because a lot of us are spending less time scrolling on social media, but we still all spend the majority of our day in our inbox. A lot of us. So to me, I do teach social media marketing, and I think it's a fantastic way to reach new audiences and younger audiences and to do fun things and experiment and build ambassadors and, and really, advertise events, things like that. But I don't want people to put all their eggs in that basket. We have to have a multi-channel digital marketing strategy that also includes our website search engine optimization is essential. People are searching. People will never stop using Google. Maybe they will. One day Google became so popular and huge. We want people to be able to find us where they are. So the other misconception that is really popular is that you have to be on all the platforms and you have to just cut and paste what you do across all the platform forms. What I've seen now, the trend is people are two platforms. Maybe now I need to start doing that because I need to really start focusing on two platforms. I feel like I spread myself so thin and I think a lot of us do, but the trend now, if you go to influencers websites, or if you go to brands that are just starting out, they're not gonna, they're not gonna see the 27 little logos on the bottom. You're gonna see Instagram probably, and maybe Twitter. and that might be it, or maybe YouTube. It depends if you're video based or visual based, or if you're text based, like LinkedIn is fantastic for B2B and consultants, but I do see the streamlining as being a big trend and the going all into one or two platforms as opposed to being everywhere at once. And I actually think that's a gift to nonprofits because we can't be expected to manage, unless you're a full-time social media person, which very few nonprofits have you cannot be expected to do those four pillars that I talked about on seven different platforms every week. It's just not feasible. Carol: You used a phrase, “your owned properties, social media is rented.” Can you say a little bit more about that? I don't know if people exactly get what you're saying there. Julia: Say you have an event in person or virtual, someone signs up for this event, permission based. you ask them to come. They come. Whether it's on Zoom, whether it's in-person, they give you their contact information. You now own that contact information and you have it. And if someone goes to your website, signs up for your email newsletter on your little form that I hope you have on your website, if someone subscribes to your blog, if you have that old school, like I have on my blog, WordPress. People can subscribe to your blog. Those are owned. You own those, and you can take those wherever you go. Sure. people will unsubscribe and move and email addresses will bounce. And that's not what I'm saying, but you do not own. You can't upload your Facebook fans. And this is a big problem. You can't get the contact information from people that donate to you on Facebook. So what I would do is just take these tools for what they are. Raise money on Facebook, raise money on Instagram. Don't worry about the contact information, but don't put all your eggs in that basket. You own your CRM, your database, you could switch a database and still bring all those contacts with you. Your direct mail list. You own that. So. To me. I want us to build our donor files, our supporter files using these tools. These amplifying tools are what I call them, but we can't just say, okay, we're not gonna have a website or an email list anymore because we have Facebook. Remember the day that Facebook went down the whole day? I was actually running a fundraising, paying for a client and we had. Multiple posts that were gonna go out. We were gonna do a Facebook live. We had Instagram posts and we had to completely cancel all of it because both platforms were down for the entire day. And we had no control over that. So we had to rely on email and we still did a lot. We did things like a YouTube live, but what I learned was that we really cannot rely on this. Like, this is just a good to have, a nice to have, but we can't put all of our effort and all of our eggs in this basket, because what if it went down, like, I'm just thinking of Giving Tuesday. If Facebook went down so many nonprofits would've lost thousands of dollars. So it's good to have, you need to have it, but focus on the other elements of your marketing program that you can, you have more control over? Carol: I remember when Facebook first started having the fundraisers, I think they were linking it, like it's your birthday, have a fundraiser. And so I did one and, I didn't realize at that point that the nonprofit that I did the fundraiser for wouldn't actually get any information about who donated. This is not helping them - it's helping them in the very short term. Julia: I kinda have a different perspective on that, so I don't mean to interrupt you but, the way I feel about Facebook fundraisers is yes, it's not a way to build your donor file long term. You're not gonna get major donors and plan givers and like to build this funnel, but. I'm sure that a lot of your friends and family had not heard of the nonprofit. So they were exposed to a brand new organization and they gave because of you, , they didn't necessarily give because they supported the organization they gave because of your birthday. And then honestly, I've given for birthday fundraisers. And then I have on my own, looked up the nonprofit later and got on their mailing list and maybe got more information. So I really see birthday fundraisers as marketing. It's like a marketing piece. Interesting. Because think of your friends on Facebook, they all saw that, and then their friends saw that, like, if I donate to my friend Melissa's birthday fundraiser, I post about it and then my friends and family see it. So the way I think about it is it's much more marketing based than fundraising based. And yeah, you're never gonna build your whole fundraising program on Facebook. And what's, what's also interesting though. about Facebook. They developed that because you remember the ALS ice bucket challenge. I can't remember what year that was. There was no donate button on Facebook. So what Mark Zuckerberg saw, because I do believe that he is like, actually a diabolical. Like, I don't know if he's evil, but I he's, he's like a genius and I'm not sure if it's in a good way, but what he saw was. Oh, everyone's donating, but they're going off of Facebook. So I wanna keep everybody on Facebook. I don't want people going to als.org and making a donation and then maybe not coming back to Facebook. So he created the donate button, really? Not out of the goodness of his heart. I mean, they know we, they say. But it was to keep us on the platform. So they wanna be in all encompassing, all, one ring to rule them all thing. And that's always been the way that they've been thinking about things. So when we think about the donate button, there are no fees involved. Fantastic. The reason we don't get the donor information is because it was never created for us. It was created so that we would stay on the platform. And so that, I mean, it's a bad user experience. It's. If you get my data and then you start spamming me or you start soliciting me again, that's bad for me. And I would blame Facebook. So if we look at it from a business perspective, it makes total sense not to give the data because it would be a bad move for them. This is also how we just have to look at social media. We can't have color glasses because we have to understand these are multi-billion dollar businesses and the answer to them. They're shareholders. So that was a little bring of their own, but I don't think people know how the donate button came about. I think they thought it was interesting. Oh, they wanna do something good for nonprofits? No, they just wanna keep you on the platform. It's really true. It's totally true. Yeah. I'm reading that amazing book. , I can't remember who it's by. It's all about Facebook. It came out a couple of years ago and it's really eye-opening and pretty, incredibly amazing. So I teach it, I love it. I think it has power and potential, but I always take things with a grain of salt when it comes to these platforms. ‘Cuz I just think, okay, shareholders, shareholders, they're businesses. They're businesses. They're not nonprofits like we are. Yeah. Carol: And I really appreciate the perspective of its amplification. It’s nice to have the extra, but it's not the core pieces. So one thing that's interesting when I'm, when I'm doing strategic planning with organizations, I feel like almost every group, one of the themes that comes out of all the conversations that I have with people is we're the best kept secret in blah, blah, blah Julia: Are we though? Carol: Now that I've heard it from so many different groups, I'm just curious, like how. I don't know, like, yes. How do you get over that? Is it important? Is it important for every group to be a household name? Julia: It's not possible. I don't think it's possible. That's true. I think of the organizations where I live, some of the really small organizations, like I live in a town of 4,000 people and if it's a food bank, it's a village technically. And if it's the library here, it's not going to appeal like 4,000. It's kind, probably the limit. Maybe people that have lived here and moved, but you're not gonna get 300,000 Facebook fans. It's just not going to happen because you are serving such a small community and it's such a targeted niche thing. So we have to really tamp down our extra, I think, unless we are. Dealing with a cause that's in the news all the time, unless we are a national organization, unless we're an international organization. So we have to understand that. Not only can we not reach everybody, probably the majority of people are not going to support what we do. And that's so hard to stomach for a lot of organizations that have. This passion, the curse of knowledge, they know that what they do is important. They know that it's life changing. They know that they're making a huge difference in a lot of different populations, but there are people that don't agree with food banks. There are people that don't agree with homeless shelters. There are people that don't agree with arts programs. I mean, there are people that just, they don't care, they don't, and that we can't change that. So to me, I just want people to focus on who you have now and love on them and love on them and appreciate them, encourage them to spread the word like you. Did Carol have a fundraiser, tell your friends and family. They are your best marketers. They are your absolute best ambassadors. And then try to find more like-minded people, but don't get hung up on being the best kept secret because how many people can get on the front page of the New York times, not many. Even the front page of your local newspaper, it's pretty rare. So I really encourage people and marketers, especially fundraisers to love on the people that are there, because what happens is we get so focused on. Acquiring new people and new names and new donors. And then we neglect the people we have. And I just actually, who did I just have on my podcast? Julie Edwards, she's a fundraiser consultant. She was talking, she was saying that donor retention. It's something like 20% or at least in the last couple of years. So we don't focus nearly enough on keeping the people we have. We're constantly focused on the next thing, the next thing. And I really think we should do more to retain and engage the people that have raised their hand and said, Hey, I really like you, rather than just say, okay, we're 10 more. The like, Carol: Cause you hear people like, oh, we're just preaching to the choir. Julia: And the choir's amazing. If you get the choir singing together in harmony, get more people to get them to join the choir. Like you need the choir. If you don't have the choir, what do you, well, I mean, I'm not a real church goer, but I would say if you don't have a choir, you don't have a church. Like if you don't have people. Attending the church and their job is really to get more people to come and to, to make it an exciting, fun thing to do to invite people to say, we're having this great party over here. Do you wanna come? Oh, you don't wanna come right now? You can't come. It's not a good time. That's fine. The door's always open or, Hey, you wanna come? Here's some more information on how you can come to this party. And I think the whole notion of. Like beating people over the head with information and forcing them. And like we would, bring it full circle, manipulating people, guilting people. That's just not a sustainable way. It's like, you need to inspire people, get them excited, and then they're gonna spread the gospel for staying on this metaphor. Carol: Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, overwhelming people with information. If I had a magic wand to change the nonprofit sector, I would somehow sum all the policy people and I would sit them down with the marketing people and, um, have the marketing people. help them simplify their message. So on all those advocacy emails that I get, I'm now saying this so that if a few people hear me, I want a, the highlight summary, like that has like a sentence behind it. Mm-hmm and then the second version is I want all the details. Then you can give me the version that the policy people will usually give. Yes, but I want to. Julia: This is called TLDR for “too long, didn't read.” Have you ever seen that? Oh my God. Well, so sometimes people write emails and it's TL:DR. Yep. I've seen that where it's like, this is the too long didn't read version and it's two sentences. And then it's the whole rest of the email. If you wanna read it, go ahead. Carol: I was talking to somebody who was interested in taking action on an item. Yeah. an issue. And she went to their website and she got so overwhelmed by the amount of information that was there. She just was paralyzed and didn't do anything. So it had exactly the opposite effect of what they wanted. Yes. Um, yeah, Julia: This gives me a good idea for a blog post. All right. Excellent. Yeah, and we don't need more information. We need people to synthesize information for us. Yeah. And tell us why it's important. So you and I, we can Google everything all day. Every day. We do not need more information or data or statistics. We do need someone to tell us what it means and why it's important. And I totally agree with you, too many emails are just listing the data, but not giving me any context. Carol: Yeah. And not giving me the simple “okay. And here's the next thing to do and I'm gonna help you do it.” So one of the things you talk about is future-proofing your organization. Can you say a little bit more about what you mean by that and how somebody might go about future-proofing? Julia: I talk a lot about specifically future-proofing your marketing strategy, but I do think the. Principles would apply to me, my main idea behind this is to build a community that is excited and inspired by what you do. And that will follow you anywhere because tools and trends come and go. There's a clubhouse. There's this idea that something's gonna come up. TikTok and Snapchat the tools are not what's important. And I think when people hear me talk about future-proofing and trends, they get excited and they're like, “oh, she's gonna talk about the five tools that you need.” But actually the tools are really the least important thing. It's if you understand your audience and truly understand what they want. And just like we just said, if you can really distill your message down. Into the why and not focus so much on the how also if you're adaptable. So we have to be more proactive. That's a huge thing that I teach and that I advocate for rather than simply reacting. To change or putting our head in the sand and saying we can't fundraise because of XYZ, or we can't do this. We can't do that. We can't do this. Trying to be as proactive as possible around the things that you can control or the things that you do have in your wheelhouse. So, we can't control things like the war in Ukraine, we can't control things. Like I remember George Floyd's murder and, and the black lives matter protests and clients of mine had fundraising campaigns. They had marketing campaigns going on. You just have to say something like, trust your gut and say, okay. We're gonna be quiet now, but then not be quiet forever. Don't think because the world is constantly changing. I mean, the only constant is really change. Don't think because the world is so in upheaval that you can't, you can't connect with people. And then another thing that I teach is just to communicate more than you think you need to, you are not annoying people. If you are sending out relevant interest in communications that people want to hear. So, yeah, you're annoying me. If you send me five emails that are written the exact same way, just ask me for money. But if you're communicating with me weekly or twice a month, about the impact of my donation, about the problem, about the solution that you're providing, about things that you're doing, what should I know, what do I need to know? If you are becoming a thought leader and a go-to resource, then the tools don't matter. And, and. The method of communication doesn't really matter. So I think the only way to future-proof yourself is to become a real go-to resource and thought leader in your industry, even if it's tiny and small and not quote unquote sexy. Although I don't believe there are no sexy causes. I hear that all the time. I call this sexy well, sexy is in the eye of the beholder. As we know, like what I think is sexy, you might not think it is sexy. So I think that it's in the eye of the beholder, but really being able to understand your audience is what's important to them and what motivates them. And then just constantly be proactive in giving that to your audience. That's really the only way we're gonna get through. The next, I don't know, 5, 10, 15, 20 years of total upheaval and change. Carol: Yeah. And that goes back to what you were saying before, really pay attention to the people who are already there. Who've already raised their hand. Who've already said they're interested. , yeah. Keep educating them. And, but it doesn't need to be a dissertation every time to give them the tools to spread the word, right. Like helping them be an ambassador. Yeah, I've been an ambassador and they don't, they're not necessarily, that's maybe somewhere where somehow it might actually be helpful, right? Like how do you, how would, what are some steps that you might be able to take to let other people know about the organization, et cetera. Julia: Right. If you can't. I see Global Citizen as a fantastic example. I get their emails and honestly, there's great articles and information, but it's always like here's a step I can take this month, tweet this out, sign this petition, put this on Facebook, it's usually very simple activities like that. They do fundraising campaigns, but it's very rare. It's mostly here's something small you can do to spread the word about this and to help us, reach more eyeballs and more people that are interested and does it make you feel good? I mean, they're targeting a very, very young audience actually. They target a lot of college students and like Gen Z who might not have the ability to make a donation. I'm thinking of my daughter, she's twelve. She doesn't have a bank account. So she's on TikTok, but she still elevates the voices of people due to her sharing commenting, that's a huge deal to that generation. So you're building it up for them to care about these causes. It's a long term game here, and then when they become my age and then they can actually make donations. Hopefully they will have remembered that experience that they had. So I just see it as playing, playing a really long term game. There's so many different generations that we have to interact with now. I mean, I think there's like seven distinct generations right now. So we can't. We can't ignore the people with the money, right? The boomers, but we can't ignore the people that are coming up and that are really active in digital natives and are excited to spread the word and talk about it. So we just need to have different approaches. I think for, for both ends. Carol: Yeah, absolutely. So at the end of each conversation, I like to ask a somewhat random icebreaker question. Yes. And so I pulled one out of my handy icebreaker question box. Yes. So if you could have any fictional character as your friend, who would you pick and why? Julia: Wow. That is such an amazing, amazing, amazing question. Okay. I don't wanna think too long about this because I have so many books that I love. Mm-hmm , oh, I just had it in my brain and I lost it. Well, Right now I'm reading. Well, first of all, I should probably say cat is from hunger games, cuz I'm obsessed with hunger games, but I'm not sure she'd be such a good friend. So I dunno if she'd be like a really fun person to hang out with. But I'm reading station 11 right now. I don't know if you've read that. Mm-hmm so good and it's a TV show on HBOMax. So I would have Kirsten, the main character. I believe I would love to hang out with her. I think she'd be fun. Carol: Yes. Yes. She is a really, really interesting character Julia: Yeah. It's cool. Just such an interesting experience and she's just very Shakespeare and I think it'd be cool. Carol: Yeah. And what was so interesting that, that book, and then the series was one of many. After some huge apocalypse story, but what I really appreciated about that one versus so many others, is that, sure there was some fighting between different groups of people, but that wasn't really the focus. Julia: It's not like walking dead where it's just a bunch of oh yeah. People fight all the time. Carol: And so many of the others, , after the apocalypse are always people fighting. And this one, I really felt like it was much more centered. People taking care of each other and I was that's what's actually gonna happen. Like yeah, sure. Julia: People are gonna fight and be terrified. It's not gonna be Mad Max. Carol: People are gonna take care of each other. Julia: Oh, can I add one more- Jo of Little Women, obviously. Oh yeah, you gotta hang out with Anne of Green Gables. Okay. Now I've got a million of them. Carol: We'll have a tea party with all of them. Julia: Have a dinner party. That would be amazing. There you go. That's a great, great question. Carol: Yeah. Yeah. So, what's coming up for you. What are you excited about, , in your work these days? Julia: Yay. I'm traveling a lot more for work and speaking. I am running my nonprofit social media summit again this year, November second and third. The registration page is not up yet, but we're really excited about that. I'm working with, , neon one CRM on. The third year of our summit, we did it in person in 2019, virtually last year. And we're doing a virtual this year again. , and my podcast, nonprofit nation, I absolutely love it. Some fantastic episodes and great guests coming up. So I just, I'm really, I'm feeling very positive for 20 me, 22. I really am. I think. I think it, I mean , I felt very positive about 20, 20 and 2021, but this year is our year. This is the year that it's gonna be. It's gonna be good, but I'm just feeling very, very positive and optimistic. Carol: Awesome. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. It was great. Thanks Carol. Great having you on the podcast and really appreciated the conversation. Julia: Thank you so much anytime. Carol: I appreciated Julia’s point about the marketing assets that you own vs your presence on social media. Whatever following you cultivate on social media – you only have access to them to the extent the algorithm puts your stuff in front of them. I was talking to someone recently who said they post on LinkedIn to broadcast what they are up to. But that isn’t really the case – because the LinkedIn algorithm decides whether it puts your post in someone’s feed or not. When you send an email to your list, you know you are sending it directly to the person. They may not open it and read it – but at least you know you have sent it to them. So your subscriber list, your donor list – these are all important marketing and fundraising assets of your organization. I also appreciated her different take on Facebook fundraisers – that they actually serve a marketing purpose by making more people aware of an organization they may not have heard of before. So even though the organization is not getting the donor information from the fundraiser – you are still getting them a little money in the short term and some visibility. Her advice to ‘love on the people that are there’ reminded me of Stu Swineford’s comment about the value of the choir. Both are saying – care for the people who already support you. Give them tools and resources to be able to spread the word. Don’t assume they know how to be a good ambassador for your organization – make sure you give them the resources and time to practice sharing your good news. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Julie, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. We want to hear from you! Take a minute to give us feedback or ask a question at missionimpactpodcast.com/feedback. Until next time! In episode 45 of Mission: Impact, Carol and her guest, Stu Swineford discuss:
If you know me, you’ll know I’m never one to shy away from an opportunity to grow and take on new challenges. For example, I started my marketing career as a copywriter and ad man. But one day, when my graphic designer colleague didn’t show up for work, I evolved (very quickly) into a designer. After all, I was the only other person in the building who knew how to turn on the Mac. Since then, I’ve performed virtually every role in the digital marketing production lifecycle – from strategy and concepting, to design and development, to QA/QC and everything in between. Along the way, I realized that I get the greatest joy from helping others achieve their goals. In a way, you could say I’m making the world a better place, one frustrated professional at a time. These days, I’m in love with purposeful, conversion-focused digital marketing strategy and execution. That, and doing ridiculous things outdoors – usually where oxygen is limited. When I’m not helping entrepreneurs and executive-level professionals, I can be found traipsing around the woods near the cabin in which I have lived with my wife and menagerie of pets since 1993. There I watch movies, read, and polish the details of my latest (possibly ill-advised) master plan for world domination. If you’re interested in pulling me out of the woods for a coffee and talking shop (or hearing how I managed to actually run 100 miles in one go), please send an email my way (stuart@relishstudio.com), give me a call (303.825.4441), check out the podcast (relishthis.org), or grab a copy of my book, Mission Uncomfortable. Important Links and Resources:
Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Stu Swineford of Relish Studios. Welcome to Mission Impact, the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I am Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. Stu and I talk about the nonprofit marketing ecosystem and how complex it can be, why it is important to really be able to articulate what makes your organization different, and why many nonprofits struggle with the attract phase of the marketing cycle Before we jump into the conversation I want to let you know about a new thing that I am doing. I am hosting the Nonprofit Leadership Roundtable every couple months. During the Roundtable, you get to talk with your peers, share an opportunity or challenge you are having at work and get some peer coaching on the topic. The Roundtable is free and I host it on Zoom. The next one will be Thursday April 28, 2022. You can register on the Eventbrite site. We will post a link from the mission impact website. It would be great to see you there. All right. Welcome Stu. Welcome to the podcast. Stu Swineford: Thank you so much for having me on Carol. I'm really excited to talk with you today. Carol: So I like to start out with a question around what, what drew you to the work that you do? What, what motivates you and what would you describe as your why? Stu: That's a great question. I think that it comes down to my initial motivation, [it] was opportunity. I was working as a sales guy at a bike catalog company back in the early nineties. And had been working there for a couple of years. And one day the owner came to me and said, Hey, do you want to go to lunch? And I thought, well, this is a weird way to fire somebody. But we went on a bike ride for lunch and during that ride invited me to help them with copywriting. So at the time I was just being, I was just a sales guy, but they needed some help writing copy for the county business. This tells you how old I am. We're talking about actual physical catalogs back in the day. So I raised my hand and said, yeah, that sounds great. I think that sounds like fun. So I became a copywriter in about six weeks. After that the graphic artists decided that she no longer wanted to work there and just stopped showing up. So we had a catalog that needed to be completed and gotten out the door in about three or four weeks after that. And I thought to myself, well, I know how to turn the Mac on. So maybe this is something I can do. So I raised my hand and said, how about I take this on and see about. Being a graphic designer and all of a sudden at about the age of 23 or so, I found myself as the director of marketing for one of the top three catalog companies in the states at the time. So it was really an opportunity that drove me initially to marketing. From there, I really was able to, Work for during the.com boom, and worked for a number of agencies and eventually found myself in a position where I decided that I knew enough to be dangerous, to run my own business. And so started relish studio back in 2018. I'm one of the co-founders of, and, and partners at relish studio. And we were able to refine what we do to bring a little bit of a different take to it where we recognized that. We had the most fun. And we did our best work when we were working for companies who had something more in mind than just making money. It wasn't just buying the owners next yacht or, or Porsche or something like that. There was a mission behind what these companies were doing. And so we really pivoted what we do to try to work with purpose driven businesses, nonprofits, people in that, in that zone who. Who really do have a little bit of a giving back mentality. So that's what we try to do here at relish studio. So I think that's our, why being able to serve authentically one of my declarations is I exist to serve and and so I really have embraced that and, and, and that's what gets me up. Carol: That's awesome. Yeah, I, I can, I can relate to that story because I feel like when I first moved into the nonprofit sector, I had a little bit of a background of doing some Well, they were actually advertorials and it was also in a, in a physical magazine that got sent to people who, who did a radio talk shows back in the day, then moved into the nonprofit sector because I wanted to really support causes that I believed in, but it was also a little bit of the case of, oh, well, she can write, so she should do marketing. Like, or, and she's organized so she can manage production. it was very much falling into it and, and, not moving out of the, out of the circles fast enough when it's like, well, okay, you, and and I've since moved away from that, but I feel like for a lot of people in the non-profit sector they may not come to their role with a huge amount of background or, they may have some basic skills. Don't have a degree in marketing or business or, and they're having to learn as they go. So where would you say is a place to start for folks who, they, they somehow end up with that title. But aren't really, don't necessarily have a real huge background in, in the field for a, for a small organization. Stu: That's a really fantastic question. It's like marketing a marketing title through necessity and opportunity there. Right. I think that. So we have a blog post that actually has gotten quite a bit of traction over the years that just talks about the marketing ecosystem and how complex it can be and understanding that there are a thousand things that you can do in any given day. The best plan of action is to pick one and do it really well. And then you can move on into other options, understanding also where your audience is going to play. I think that there are a lot of people who feel forced into social media. They may not be comfortable with it, or, they're, they're trying to do all of the things in social media instead of just figuring out which one will have the most impact and going there. So we always try to start with values, vision, mission making sure that there's a good understanding, a good solid understanding of, of what makes your organization different. And then really rolling into the audience, who are the people who are going to support your organization. And where do they go to get information where they go to engage and, and start there? So for example, in the nonprofit world, the boomer generation is still one of the most powerful. Donor pools out there. But there are a lot of new social media platforms out there that are exciting and fun and people want to play in. But, for example, putting all of your eggs into the TikTok basket with. Your organization and the donor pool is really in the, more aligned with the Facebook basket or even direct mail or email basket is something that you want to consider. So just make sure that you are hitting things hitting the people where they should. There are programs out there to help with coaching. In fact, relish studio has a coaching program as well, where we help budding marketers learn more about marketing and, and become more adept at being able to fill. Role within their organizations. So I'd say that going out and trying to seek out those types of service opportunities or learning opportunities would be another, another place to, to start as you're dipping your toe in the marketing. Carol: Yeah. And you make some great points there. I mean, one of the things that, as I was thinking about our conversation today, I was thinking about was, with marketing today, there are just so many different options, different directions that people can go in different channels. And so starting about thinking, who are you trying to reach? Who you're trying to educate or inform about what you're doing, what your organization is doing and then where they hang out and go there. And instead of, “oh, well I'm comfortable writing, so I'm going to do a blog,” but no one's going to come to it or, from your own comfort level of like, “oh, I have fun on Instagram and I'm going to go there.” [Try] thinking about it from the other person's point of view: where are your donors – or potential donors – and how can you reach them where they're at? Stu: One of the things that we've done, we have a blog but one of the things we recognized is, it's really challenging to get people to come to your site for a “regular blog” type of scenario. So we looked at a couple of ideas and in one of those was why don't we go where the audience is. And so I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn basically putting material there. It can be, it can be reused on the blog. So it's not like you can't use that material on your site as well. And we've actually seen a strong growth in both organic and redirected traffic from LinkedIn to our site. So, I think that what I really recognized was I was able to reach a larger audience. If I went to where they were actually hanging out, rather than asking them to come, come join me wherever. Carol: Yeah, exactly. And I think the other thing that you talked about right, there was just the ability to use one thing, but re put it in different places, repurpose it. And, and I think that that's a great opportunity for organizations, especially when there's, they're stretched so thin. They don't need to be in that constant turn of, we’ve got to create something new all the time, what's the take, the one thing, and how can you use it in five different ways? So if somebody were to try to do some more repurposing of what they're already producing, what are some ways that you would talk them through thinking about. Stu: Well, a podcast is a great example. You can start with an audio or a video explanation or discussion or conversation. And from that, you can get a variety of different materials. So I have a podcast called Relish. It's about nonprofit marketing. And I have conversations with nonprofit leaders and experts in the field who bring a lot to the table in terms of opportunities to just have discussions around, around marketing and how people can do a better job. So there's one asset there, which is the podcast itself. That podcast theoretically can be broken into sound bites. If there are nice little quotes in there, those can be leveraged on social media. You can put a sound byte out that is a teaser to the show that drives people back to the podcast. The transcript of the podcast becomes an opportunity to create written content that can be used in a variety of different ways, both on social media and on a blog et cetera. In fact, what are the, one of the ideas around starting the show was that I would get a book out of it, out of it. I'd have, let's say 52 conversations. And from that we had a book, essentially. I have not yet written that book, but it's certainly there and the opportunity there to take what started as an audio recording and. pretty quickly enables you to repurpose that material. in a variety of different ways to, to get the most out of that one piece of media. I am also always on the lookout during my show for blog opportunities and ideas. And so we leverage it that way as well as send out an email about the show, send out an email with that, with those blog post opportunities. So, we're repurposing what started as one conversation into a whole variety of different materials. We also publish the audio to YouTube as a video. I know there are a lot of podcasts out there that record video for their shows as well. So, there's just a lot, a lot of ways to to take one piece of media and make it really like. Carol: Yeah. I mean, I started including transcripts of the interviews. My initial motivation was just around accessibility in terms of the deaf community who obviously can't listen to a podcast. But I realized there was someone who was listening who said “No, I love the fact that you do transcripts because I don't generally listen to podcasts, but I love reading the conversation.” So it makes it accessible to folks whether they have a challenge in the way or not. So yeah, then all those things that you're talking about, how can you springboard from that one piece? What do you see as the biggest challenges facing nonprofits when it comes to marketing and getting the word out about the work that they do? Stu: Well it really depends on the non-profit the maturity level of, of, of each nonprofit, I would say. I think that non-profits tend to have a real challenge in the attract phase. So if you consider our idea that there are essentially four major phases of a stakeholders life cycle: attract, bond, connect, and then inspire. Within those, you can break it out into a little more granularly where people need to know about you. So they need to find out who you are. They need to then develop a sense of liking you where they're like, okay. Yeah, this is a person I'm interested in continuing to follow trusting you. So providing proof that you're doing a good job or. social proof that demonstrates that that is what you're doing. And then we move into the connect phase so that those are part of the bond of the attraction phase. We move into the connect phase where they're really being able to try and buy. So, small offers, small opportunities to have a value exchange. Usually that's an email. It starts with time for value. And then you escalate that to perhaps an email address for value. And then eventually that becomes a financial transaction where you're actually getting a donation. And then or, or a purchase, if you're a nonprofit actually has a product that they can sell. And then we move into the inspire phase, which is essentially once you have established that financial, transactional relationship moving into the inspire phase is really getting those people to shout your praises, to spread the message to reach a wider audience, as well as repeat. So you're taking a one-time donor and turning them into a second time donor, turning them into a monthly donor. Maybe getting their business involved and having. Those relationships grow into something that's bigger than what it first started, which might be a simple $20 donation. And so, so really I think some of the big challenges lie in that attract phase. What are the things that we can do as a nonprofit to get the word out and encourage people to come learn more? What are those offers? What are those things that are going to get people to. To say, oh, I want to learn more about this. And that tends to be I think one of the, one of the biggest areas of challenge is, is just starting to, how do I, how do I get in front of the right people to get them to come to my site or to learn more about. Carol: So, what are some things that you've seen organizations be successful in, in terms of that attract phase or that, just building some awareness around the work that the organization is doing. Stu: I think that organizations, one of the things that we see organizations of almost every type struggle with is how to position themselves as the guidance story. All of us want to be the hero in our own stories. And most organizations fall into that trap where, when they talk about themselves with. When they're attempting to talk to their audiences, they tend to talk more about themselves than their audiences and fail to really see opportunities to reframe that narrative where the audience becomes the hero of that story. And it's a challenge in the non-profit space because people are out doing really good work. They are out there, changing lives and. Perhaps saving lives. And so it's, it's pretty easy to fall into that trap of, we do this type of language. I think reframing that narrative and doing the best that you can to put it into that perspective of where your donors are, where the people in that audience are framed as the hero of that story. So trying to figure out what their motivations would be to donate to your organization, what is inspiring them to fill that role and then framing your narrative around that is one, one way to just start that process certainly as I said a few minutes ago, making sure that you're, you're in the right place to be starting. Those conversations are important as well. I would recommend that every organization out there do a survey of their constituents or their stakeholders and just find out where, where they go to get information, what social channels are they on? Where do they go, how do they even like gathering information? So, I like to read, but I don't want to watch a video. And that'll really inform not only. Where to go, but what media type to to leverage in that place in order to, to get in front of the right people and, and and create materials with that, they'll be interested in engaging with, Carol: Can you give me an example of turning that around that reframe that you're saying of being the guide versus the hero in the story? Stu: Yeah. So an example in the nonprofit space might be, let's say you are a, let's say you're an organization that builds trails and advocates for trail use in in a certain area. One of the ways that you might re-frame that conversation. So instead of saying, Hey, we help save the trails and keep them clean. And ready for all of the access that people might want. You might want to reframe that in the perspective of, if we know that you are passionate about trails and want to keep them safe. So by donating today, you help w you help keep this area's trails open and accessible for all. Carol: Yeah. So it's turning it around again. I mean, just like you were saying at the beginning where it's, go, go where the folks are, right. Rather than where you want to hang out and then put them in the center of the story instead of, instead of yourself. Yeah, just really appreciate that you talked about maturity levels of organizations, kind of. I'm curious what you see. Well, obviously there, there are organizations that are early on small as they get bigger. What are some different things that you see as opportunities as, as organizations grow to maybe, I don't know whether it's necessarily to expand their marketing, but maybe do it differently as they. Stu: Yeah. So I think as organizations grow and this can be any organization you have, have built up an audience, you have built up a base of clients or donors or stakeholders that have raised their hand that are ready to continue to engage. With your organization, if you just ask them. And so the lowest hanging fruit tends to fall into that inspire phase where it's way easier to get a donor to donate again than it is to take someone through that entire journey of attracting, bond and connect and get them to donate for the first time. We, as people love shiny new things, it's just, for whatever reason our brains are geared toward how exciting it is to land something new. So it's a little boring to go back to Stephanie or Jim or, or, or, or Gail and say, Hey, would you be willing to do it? Would you be willing to donate again? Could we turn you into potentially a monthly donor? That just isn't as exciting in our brains, but it's an easier opportunity. So two things there first is. Yeah, it's way easier to get someone to donate again than it is to get them to donate the first time. And the second thing is those people also have demonstrated their interest in your organization and their desire to help your organization. And so even though. Even if they aren't able to donate again right now, they will probably be willing to share your mission with their networks. So that repeat and refer area is something that we see as more available to a mature organization, because you've just simply been around for longer. And you have those connections built up versus a startup, nonprofit who right now doesn't really have a whole lot of opportunity to re-engage donors if they, if they're just starting to get them. Carol: Yeah. And what comes to mind is the phrase, “oh, you're just preaching to the choir.” Well, you need the choir yeah. Those folks that continue to, to show up maybe at your events, maybe, participating in programs, donating all of those different things. And so making sure that you're treating the choir well is, is, is important Stu: Well to extend that metaphor, the choir sings really, really well. Carol: Right. And how can you help them see broader, broader audiences? Stu: Exactly, exactly. And a lot of times that's just giving them something to say, that social post and sharing it, writing an email that they can share with their, with their team, just, getting them one step down the road, saying, Hey. Feel free to modify this, however you'd like, but here's, here's some ways that you can spread this message a little bit, a little bit more effectively, and we wanted to help you help make that easier. That's certainly among the recommendations that we would have for that referral type of athlete. Carol: Yeah, that, that point of making it easy for folks. I was with a group the other day, and a woman was talking about, she wanted to take action in this particular arena. And, she went on to a website. It was, this was around, advocating for voting rights. And she was motivated. She went. But there was just so much information on the website. It was so complicated. It just overwhelmed her and she ended up in paralysis. She didn't take any action, even though she was motivated enough to go to their website and try to read, but they, they didn't, keep it simple, they wanted to give the person all the information. And so, unfortunately it probably had the opposite impact that they actually wanted because she didn't end up making the phone calls that they were hoping that she would do or anyone who would show up on the website. Right. And was motivated to take action. Stu: Yeah. We tend to fall into the trap of wanting to tell people all the things. And if we can focus on one thing at a time, this is why I've, I've gotten a little bit away from newsletters and have started focusing email outreach on a single idea and a single action. So instead of giving people a choose your own adventure, monthly newsletter, where, there are nine things that they could possibly do. Get interested in and maybe go exploring hitting people more frequently with more focused intentional single, single ideas. Emails have proven to be a lot more than that. Carol: Yeah, I've seen that for myself. When I first started out, I did a newsletter where I went once a month where I shared both. I did a twice-monthly blog. And so I shared links to each of them. And after a year looked at my stats and every single month, the one at the top was the one that got opened more. I was like, well, and, and the one, one further down, just and so yeah, I went to one thing, one email, one thing and people are just so bombarded with information that yeah, I think that, that desire to tell you everything that. We've got a lot to share. We want it, we want to do that. But what, what's that one thing that you really want people to take away or take action on? Stu: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We've found that creating synergy between your email message and where you're sending people as well is super effective. And so making sure. the tendency is to be just like, okay, well we'll send them to the homepage. Well, once I get to the homepage, there's dozens of things on most sites that people can do from there. So even creating a single landing page, that is the action that we want you to take from that particular email is a really valuable exercise. Carol: So what do you see as the opportunities for organizations as they're trying to connect with people, attract them, may do that bonding help them get to know each other, create that relationship. Really. It's not just about that transaction and then moving them to inspire what are some of the opportunities that you're seeing? Stay the course and don't get distracted with the shiny new things, or are there some new things that are coming along that people should be paying attention to? Stu: Well, that's a one fun thing about marketing is there's always something new, something that's either falling out of favor because it's no longer really working or coming into favor because it's it's something that people are trying, I would say nonprofits have a tendency to lag in terms of what they are. They just don't have the bandwidth to stay on top of the latest trends. However, like I mentioned earlier, most of the donations are still coming from the boomers. At this point that'll, fairly quickly move into Gen X-ers. And it just tends to be the people with more. Less time left on the earth, as well as more income opportunities or more, more disposable income opportunities. Tend to give a little more, it's just, we tend to do that as we age. So I would say nonprofits should probably be a little less focused on the newest. Information a delivery mechanism or, or marketing channel and stay focused more on some of the things that are a little bit more tried and true. For example, email continues to be a very viable way to engage with some of the older populations. That's been something they're comfortable with. Email, if someone's on your email list, they tend to have raised their hand at some point. So they tend to be a little more engaged with you than just, something that happens to flow into their feed. I would say consistency is something that most businesses including nonprofits can benefit from is just creating content. Map a a roadmap for what the next six months look like develop themes around that, that a roadmap. So, maybe April is going to be, when you talk about this particular program, maybe when you promote some event or sweepstakes opportunity that you have et cetera, and then develop the content that's of help support that. And then just be, get really good at executing on, on that content. just be consistent about it when shiny things, I call it the shiny squirrel syndrome. When those things come up, put them, put them in a sandbox and be willing to explore those as future opportunities, but don't let those try to not let those get in the way of the plan. Carol: Yeah, I appreciate the notion of, you don't, you don't need to be on top of all the trends and picking a couple of things, doing it well, doing it consistently. Those all can have multiplier effects. So yeah, I, I think that may be a sigh of relief for most people in the nonprofit sector where it's like, we're, we're, we're trying to do so many different things. And, and I mean, I think probably that those principles would work in a lot of different areas within an organization, oftentimes where I'm working with them around strategy. It's it's, it's also trying to figure out what are the. Couple big things that you're going to be focused on, not 95 different things that you could be doing within a particular space. So yeah it aligned. Stu: You mentioned relationships earlier, and frankly, I see marketing as just relationship building, whether you're selling, trying to sell a widget or let's say a bottle of soda or trying to get someone to come on board as a major corporate donor, it's all about building relationships and getting good at having those conversations consistently. And making sure that those are authentic. And I would say if there's, if there's ever one thing to do for an executive director or a donation manager or, someone out there it's pick up the phone or get people on calls and ask them questions and develop relationships with them. even, even buying soda, for example, Coke and Pepsi and all those guys are out there trying to develop a relationship with a customer. And it may be a fairly easy relationship to develop, a dollar or whatever, however much a soda costs these days is not a heavy lift to get somebody to try something. But at the end of the day, you’re billing awareness. So not getting people to know who you are, getting people to like you, to trust you, to try to buy, to repeat your refer. that's that, that's that cycle that, that we want to get people into. And yeah, it's just about having authentic conversations is, is really, if there was one thing that every non. Leader or their team could do it, contact X amount of people and have good solid conversations with them every week. And just put a number to that and, and make sure you're hitting that. Carol: Yeah. And I think just keeping the relationship and the conversation front of line. So even when you're, you're creating something that may not be in a conversation format and back and forth too. Remember that whatever you're sharing is only one half of the conversation. So what's, what's the other half that you went back to? So that back and forth I think is really Stu: Yeah. And developing opportunities to just provide value, whatever that is. So we talked about content a little while ago. You don't always have to be, you don't always have to come up with the big story out of thin air to be a good blog post, if there's something that aligns with your mission that, in another organization, is doing, or that's interesting. I had a conversation last night about food scarcity, scarcity at a, at a meetup that I had appeared with some somebody and, there's information there that I could then share. I didn't come up with it. Found out about it. But that's like being the Maven, being the person willing to share that information. if you can just reach out to somebody and be like, Hey, I saw this article, it reminded me of you. Here's why you think it's important or why. I thought you might be interested. Let me know what you think and send that to an individual or send that to your list, in an authentic capacity that that's good. Carol: Yeah. I actually love the parts of newsletters where it's, what we're reading right now or what we're listening to. And, and, some of my most read things have been my little, like, short reviews of books, et cetera, because people are always on the lookout for recommendations from people, as you said that from people that they trust and, and they know, have a similar perspective. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at the end of each podcast, I ask a somewhat random icebreaker question. I have a box of icebreaker questions I pull them out of. And so I've got a couple here for you. I'll just ask you one. What I usually do is pick out three and then see where the conversation goes and see what I'm pulled to, pull to, to then ask. So what's the best advice that you've ever received? Stu: Wow. The best advice. I have been fortunate throughout my life to be able to engage with experts in a variety of different fields: business, personal life. No even athletics. I just somehow managed to be able to spend time with world champions and, and people of that nature. So I've received a lot of amazing advice over the years. I think that probably the best advice I have that I could share is to be yourself. And if you can come to every conversation and every interaction as you are authentic and be interested and, and all of those things, but essentially coming from that from who you are you're going to feel more fulfilled and you're going to develop better, stronger relationships. It's that authenticity piece that I think is super important. Carol: Yeah. And I think, yeah, absolutely. And I think that that goes for organizations as well. Right. Be themselves. Yeah, I think we're, we're social creatures and our antennae are pretty good for when people are faking it. Right. And they're not, they're phony or whatnot. And so, yeah, I think that that's, that's great. That's great advice. And we're always stepping into that. I think as we, as we continue to evolve, hopefully. Yeah, I hope Stu: so. It feels to me like I've been around in the business world since, I mean, I guess I graduated college back in the early nineties. And so I entered the business world pretty, pretty soon thereafter, and for a while, there was a real trend to never show weakness and never, never be. demonstrate that things might not be going well. We're asked for help and, and I, I'm very encouraged and maybe it's just the people that I hang with, but I'm very encouraged to see at least among that group, people being more and more vulnerable and more and more willing to share both the good things and the bad things that are going on. I think that social media has created a situation where a lot of us argue. Given the opportunity to, to see how people may be struggling because they just put out the good stuff out there and just really understand that it's okay to be vulnerable. And when you can be yourself and show up in an authentic way good things happen. Carol: Yeah. And with that, I think I appreciate it. I've heard it from Brene Brown of also being aware of who's earned the right to your story. Who's earned the right to, what levels of vulnerability. Are you, are you telling a story from a wound or a scar? So I think that that's also important when you, those, those big, big blanket statements don't, obviously it never works in every situation, but the more that you can, be willing to yeah. I recognize, and share when, when you're struggling and that. But you need help. Right. And asking for help, I think, is certainly something that I've had to step into and learn more about as I grow older. So yeah. Appreciate that. So what are you excited about? What's emerging in your work? Stu: I think that is one of the things that I have been working on for quite some time. And it's really coming to fruition and I'm incredibly excited about it. It's something I spoke about a little while ago, which is this coaching opportunity. I love helping people. I love helping people be their best selves. And so being able to create a coaching program that puts me in a, in a. In a position to be able to help people in that capacity has been really fulfilling and I'm super excited to continue to expand that program. So, it's something that we have, I have several, several coaching clients at this point and And so it's really fun to be able to meet with them on a, on a regular basis and watch their progress and see how much they can come alive in, in the marketing space and be able to contribute to the growth and success and ability for their organizations to to expand that. Carol: Yeah. So it goes back to that. You don't have to do it young. You don't have to go it alone. You can, you can get help. Stu: Yeah, for sure. There are lots of resources available out there and I'm certainly available. And, and, if somebody would like to discuss some of the challenges they're facing or, or what coaching might look like, I'd be happy to chat with them about. Carol: Well, thank you so much. Thank you for being on the podcast. It's been a super pleasure. I'm excited to be able to have this chat with you and look forward to talking with you soon. Stu: Alright. Thank you so much. Thanks Carol. Carol: I appreciated Stu’s point about thinking about all of your communications from the point of view of those you are trying to reach. So if your average donor is a Baby Boomer, spending a lot of time on TikTok probably doesn’t make a lot of sense. Where do they hang out and how can you go to them? And then when you are telling your story – making yourself the guide not the hero of the story – putting the people that benefit from your work at the center instead of yourself. That can be a little tricky because you don’t want to be in the business of not respecting your clients privacy or using their challenges for inspiration porn. At the same time – how can you get yourself out of the way of the story you are trying to tell. I also appreciated Stu’s emphasis on keeping it simple. Asking people to do one thing – just one thing. When I am talking to people as part of the strategic planning processes that I support, I ask them if they had a magic wand and could change the organization in any way, what would their wishes be. So if I were to give myself the magic wand, it would be to have every policy person who writes policy updates and asks their constituents to take an action – write an email, call their representative to simplify their messages. And if they really want to share all the details – they would have two options – Click here for the highlight summary – that would have at most a sentence or two explaining – why they wanted me to contact my representative to vote for or against the bill and then provide a mechanism for me to do that. SIMPLE. Then they could include a second option – if you want all the details – click here – But right now – most of the advocacy communications I receive only have the second version. Maybe the policy people think it is the simple version – but to a layperson like me it is not. So yes – keep it simple and to the point! With that I should get to the point… Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Stu, his bio, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. Please take a minute to rate and review Mission Impact on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. I also hope of course that you subscribe so that you will get future episodes. Reviewing the podcast helps other people find the podcast. We appreciate it! Brief discussion of attempted murder from 26:27 until 26:38 In episode 43 of Mission: Impact, Carol and her guest, Travis Johnson discuss:
Travis Johnson is the host of the Nonprofit Architect Podcast. Travis shares his perspective as the former Vice President of Books by Vets; a board member at the S.H.I.N.E. foundation; he’s donated over $30,000; volunteered over 1,500 hours; raised more than $500,000; helped start 6 nonprofits; event coordinator; and published author. Travis is currently serving as an active-duty officer in the United States Navy, married with two children, and on move #50. His humble beginnings include 36 moves before graduating high school at 17, 6 states, 5 foster homes, and surviving 2 murder attempts. Although this was very rough, there was always a person, group, or church willing to help him and his family. Now that he’s in a position to give back, he’s made it his mission to “Help the Helpers”. Important Links and Resources:
Welcome Travis. Welcome to the podcast. Travis Johnson: Hey, thanks for having me, Carol. Carol: So I'd like to start each conversation with a question around what motivates folks. So, what drew you to the work that you're doing now? What would you say motivates you and what would you describe as your why? Travis: I have a why, and I just had this conversation right before we got on about a mutual friend of mine and this other guy, he's like, why are you doing all this stuff? And he replied because I'm allergic to being poor is like, why I'm doing so many things. That's not my why, but I thought it was a hilarious way to put that in context. But we're talking about the show that I had with the nonprofit architect podcast when I was growing. We had a lot of help and we needed a lot of help. I went through 36 moves, 12 schools, six states, five foster homes, and survived two murder attempts all before graduating high school at 17. And that means that we needed a lot of help, whether it was from individuals, churches, social services, or nonprofit organizations. You have a lot of credit to all the people that helped our family grow up there, the reason that we stayed sheltered close at the fed, and now that I'm in a place where I'm not in that scarcity of that survival mode, I'm able to give back. And I found out a way to be part of the community and being part of the nonprofit community, served on a couple of boards, donated a bunch of hours, and a bunch of money helped start a few nonprofits. And then I got stationed overseas in the kingdom of Bahrain. And I was like, how am I supposed to keep doing all this fun nonprofit work? And someone's like, well, you really have that podcast voice. You could probably connect and talk about some of this stuff. And I was like, Ooh, that would be cool. And, look through all the different podcasts that are out there. And there were some great conversations, but when I really didn't find that the top tier show was, was it really a show, like how do you set up a board? How do you raise money? How do you hold events? All these different things that apply to the nonprofit world. So I set out to create the premiere, how to podcasts for nonprofits. And we came up with the nonprofit architect podcast, helping build stronger nonprofits. And I view it as my mission to help health. Carol: Well, I love that, that catchphrase. I was just looking at your website and saw that it helps the helpers, because I've used that phrase myself, that when I'm working with organizations, I like to work with people who are helping other people. And so I'm like many, many lines back in the chain of the helpers. But going back to that Fred Rogers, look, look for the helpers that, that really, When I'm wondering, what, what am I doing here all day? And I, that really helps me come back to center and think, it's, it's contributing to that, that entire ecosystem of folks who are doing all sorts of things to contribute to a better world. taking care of people day to day, all of that, all of the above. So I love that motivation. It certainly rings true for me. Travis: Oh, absolutely. There's so many people out there doing, just going to work, helping their neighbors, helping the environment, helping animals. And if I, I can't help all of them, but if I can help them do what they're doing better, put a little bit more money in their pocket, help them understand their organization a little bit better, get a bit more focused. So they're able to deliver those services more efficiently, more effectively, and with less stress. All in. Carol: Absolutely. Absolutely. So one of the things that in addition to the podcast that you host yourself focusing on, how do you really think that nonprofits themselves should have their own podcasts? Can you, can you tell me a little bit more about that and why, why you think that? Travis: And we can fill up a couple of hours talking about it if you want it to. First off I fell in love with podcasting while I was deployed. It is just such an easy medium to deal with. It's easy to get started. It's free to get started. If you've got a smartphone, you've got all the equipment you need to get started. And even I have production services and all that stuff, but even if you don't use me, like just getting started and falling in love with the process, that's, that's the way to go. Everyone that I talk to, everyone that I interview, everyone that I'm a guest on their show. I get to learn something. And if I'm the host, I get to ask all the cool questions that I want answered when you're in the nonprofit space, there's all these other organizations doing something similar to what you're doing, right. They're helping the same group of people. Maybe they're helping the same type of animals and maybe you're doing it differently. But what it does is. You're promoting the stuff that you're doing in your area, right in your local area. And there's people that are going to be listening and they're going to be like, this is really cool. I want to know how I can contribute. And it might be giving your organization money directly, or it might be connecting with an organization in their area that they didn't know is there. And they can now help out. The same thing that you want to help, maybe not your organization. It helps you build this huge, massive contact list. Every interview that you do, they're also sharing. So you guys are both getting the chance to leverage each other's network, all the audience that you've built, all the audience that they've built, you get to, You lend some of your credibility and some of your audience to them as an organization, and then all the people, because they're going to share the episode, all the people in their sphere of influence, they're going to hear about you. And it's such a fantastic way to grow your audience, to connect, to do better things on the personal. you go to a school, you go to college, you learn life experiences. Maybe you get into reading and maybe you listen to podcasts. Like you're listening to right now and they're going to teach you something. But when you start interviewing people, it's like having your own private masterclass with the experts. I got the opportunity to interview Asha Curran from Giving Tuesday, and learned a ton. Interviewed Alan Stein Jr. From raising your game. He's done leadership work with the late great Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, and he gets to speak about leadership on the show. I got to interview Bob Burg, author of the Go-Giver series. It was just a fantastic man. I love his five principles for stratospheric success. And I got to interview Steve Sims. This is someone that does world-class events for millionaires and billionaires. He hosts, Sir Elton John's. Carpet Oscar party every year. And I asked him, I was like, what's the difference between the way for-profit businesses do events and the way that nonprofit businesses, like I got to ask him personally, instead of having to spend like $30,000 for his coaching, I get to bring them on my show. He gets to leverage my platform and I get to ask him for whatever the heck I wanted to. But if you're in the nonprofit space, And you're trying to get something accomplished, especially if it requires legislation, you can interview every single politician, every city council member, the mayor, the Senator, the Congressman state, and the federal level, the governor, you get to get them on your show on a record, talking about the thing that you both care about. Best part about it is when this comes up in Congress or for a vote or they're getting the committees ready. They're going to say this stuff, who do we know that's an expert, and they're gonna remember being on your show and you're going to get brought into the conversation to have that direct ability to affect the change that you want to see in the world with the people that can make it happen. It's such a fantastic way to leverage and do everything you want to do as a nonprofit, but that's not even the biggest part of this Carol. It's the big difference between a website people go to all the time, day after day, week after week, month after month and a website. Yeah. People only go through one time. The biggest difference between the two is new content. When you look at news, sports, social media, whatever it is, there's new stuff every day. And when you look at the vast majority of non-profit websites, it looks like a digital pain, but this is who we are. This is what we do. Here's our founding story. And that's great. And there's a sure, some donation plugin there so people can give you money, but they've got no reason to come back to your website. Unless you've created new content and reasons for, for doing that. So by adding a podcast or a blog or a blog or a YouTube channel to your page and creating that new content, all of a sudden people are coming to your page for other reasons. And realizing that the thing they care about is the thing that you care about and they can provide money directly to the cause of the thing that they care about. Because they found you through some other method and what a fantastic way to get people into your circle and to create real value for them, the person that large, the potential donor, the potential volunteer is by coming directly to you because of something that you've created. Carol: Yeah, that's awesome. I wanted to follow up on a couple of different things you've talked about there. First is I just totally resonate with the idea that the podcast actually is a learning mechanism because I, when I started mine or even actually way before I started it, because, well, I won't admit how long it took me to get started. But when I first had the idea, I was sitting at a conference and listening to. A number of experts, consultants. Who've been in the field for a long time and were thinking about their legacy. And I thought, oh, wouldn't, I want to follow up with these people having kind of one-on-one informational interviews. And I thought, well, Wouldn't it be cool if I just shared that, if I just had the conversation recorded and then shared it with other people and, and that was the springboard for the, the podcasts that my podcast of yeah, exactly. That I could say, talk to interesting people. I'd be doing that anyway. The difference is I hit record and I work with some of them, do a little bit of editing and add some music and stuff, but beyond that, it's pretty simple. Right. It's what you would do in a virtual coffee anyway. And yet it can be valuable to a whole other group of people. So I love, yeah, so, it could be Just that, that, that instance of learning and continued growth. I think too often folks in organizations think about any content that they're creating a blog post, possibly a pocket. As, just as a way to get their message out, but all of those other benefits of the multiplying networks that you're talking about, the potential for relationship building. Having, as you said, your own private masterclass with really prominent people, all is beneficial. And, and for me, when I was doing my worst case scenario, What if no one listens to this podcast, I still could list all of those things as benefits. And luckily there are plenty of people listening. So thank you to all of them, all the folks who are listening. But I could list all of those benefits from the get-go even if, if my worst fear were to have. Travis: You have nobody listened. Nobody showed up, the really cool part about it is, a lot of organizations have a problem with things like, what am I gonna post on social media? Like, what am I going to, I don't even know what to put out there today. If you do something like an interview show, thank you Carol, for being my guest yesterday. And I'm your guest today. Thank you so much. If Carol asked me 10 questions and I provided 10 answers. That's all the content you need to have a morning in an afternoon post each and every week. Right? So if you interview me, it’s January 6th. I don't know when this is going to be published. Let's just say it's next week. Carol asked me 10 questions, using a program that's free called headliner. And you can take a few minute clips out of there. Her question and my answer. And if you have 10 questions and answers, you have a morning, Monday morning and Monday afternoon, Tuesday morning and Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning or Wednesday afternoon for the whole week, from just a single conversation, you don't have to figure out what you're going to post. You just have to repurpose what you've created and all of a sudden that workload goes away. If you have a company doing the backend stuff for you, they create them all for you. And they can even schedule them out. So you don't have to even do anything. You just record the episode, you give it to the team and they do all the work. Carol: I think that's another thing that people forget is the number of ways that you can repurpose. One thing that you've created. So you've talked about a lot of the benefits that organizations can see from doing a podcast from, the learning aspect of connecting with other people, networking with other potential partners highlighting all the interesting things. Obviously you can just interview people within, inside your organization and help highlight their expertise. Multiplying networks, having, having people they'll share you share you got to borrow people's audiences are stepping into their audiences and building relationships in that repurposing. What are some of the things that you see gets in the way of folks getting started? Because it might, it might seem intimidating to do a pilot. Travis: It can be. And I'm sure when you started your show, I mean, you feel like there's a thousand things you got to figure out before you surgery. You're like, oh, what am I going to record this thing? When do I have the time? And who's going to do the production, can I do the production? Can I do all these things? What equipment do I need? What do I host it on? Can I change it? What am I going to name it? Like it can be. It can be a lot to be successful in this stuff. The main thing you need to do is say what your show is about and tell people how often you're going to do it. And if you keep the program on target about what it's going to be about, and you publish, when you say you're going to publish that builds credibility and authority and reliability. So I said, I'm going to do a weekly show, and I've done a weekly show each and every week I publish. And people come flocking in. They know that it might be providing the steps they need to be successful. So I've said what I'm going to do. And then I do it, which is great. If you look out there, there's all sorts of different production, quality levels. There's people on their phone on anchor, just chatting for a few minutes and then they call it good. A guy named Russell Brunson. Who's the co-founder of click funnels. Did this as a marketing podcast. He got in his car every morning, recorded on his phone on the way to work at 10. And it got to the parking lot and he hit publish and just let it go. He did this for like 400 episodes. He's gotten millions upon millions upon millions of downloads. No intro music, no outro music, no production quality whatsoever. He had quality conversations with himself and publishing. And allowed him to have this huge platform with millions of downloads. You don't have to get all crazy with it. You can write, you're going to get the Joe Rogan setup and he's got people setting up the sound and he's got the crazy microphone and he's got headphones and mixers and all these things. And they do it in a sound booth and a sound room, and then they take it and they put all this production value into it, make the sound, sound great, and all these things. And you can do that, but you don't have to do that. I didn't start with this fancy microphone. I started with the equipment that I have and started having good conversations and came from it from a curious point of view. And that's all that was needed. To start going to start showing up to have the audience grow and to provide value. It doesn't have to be crazy. People are like, well, we already do so much in the nonprofit. When are we going to have the time? Hey, I get it. But if you have someone dedicated to doing the interview, One day a month in the morning, lunchtime afternoon, evening, they sit down and record all the episodes for the month. They don't have to be crazy. not doing a Joe Rogan three hour long marathon. There's nothing wrong with his show, but some people just don't have the time and I don't blame them. Right. But you can say I'm going to do 10, 15, 20 minute episodes. And if you're going to do an interview, you set them all up on the same day. You do them back to back to back and. Yeah, two hours worth of work, record six interviews, and you've got six weeks worth of material. If you have a team that's doing the production, you give it over to them, they publish it, they edit it and they do all those things. So as long as you have the time to record, which is a two hour block, Sometime during the month, you've got your time set aside. So it's really easy to do. It can be free to start. If you use your cell phone, an anchor, you can buy the equivalent when you decide, you know what? We really like this thing because we want to improve the sound quality. People understand that you might not be the best interviewer when you start. I don't think I was the best interviewer when I started Carol. Were you the best interviewer? Carol: No. I mean, I think that's been one of the, talk about learning from others, but you just, you also get better at this. Right. You get, you get more comfortable. It's not as anxiety producing as it might've been at the beginning. So yeah, you definitely get better and, and right. If there are lots of different options, you can do like the person that you mentioned, you're just doing a solo show short. Some thoughts on your own. You don't have to be interviewing other people. You can mix it up. Right. So, occasionally I'll do a solo episode. I mostly do interviews, but occasionally I'll, I'll throw one of those in a couple, couple of episodes ago. I did a best-of which was an interesting one because I found that it actually took more work than doing a simple interview, but it was a lot of fun too. Travis: Oh, it's there. There's no, there's no rules, right? So you can have these as long or as short as you want them. There's there's people that do flash briefing. On Google or Alexa or Siri or whatever you have that are between two and 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be crazy long. It doesn't have to be all consuming. I posted a solo show on the fifth. That is like three quick tips, three reasons. I think every podcast needs their own website. And it's really quick. I go through the three tips, a program or something that's going to add value to the podcaster. There's three and a half minutes. What would he do? People are like, well, I just don't like the camera, I guess what? I didn't like the camera when I started. I like it now because with the right filters, I look, I mean, I'll look good. Like let's not pretend here. I'm joking. Of course. I don't know. I'm not that high on myself, but you can turn the camera off and just record audio. You can do this in your slippers and housecoat. Nobody cares. I've got a show on the veteran podcast. As a gal who talks about mule, military sexual trauma, and she's still active duty military. So all of her stuff, she's never shown her face. She's getting the word out there, talking about the thing that's important to her, but she's doing it anonymously. Like we don't know who it is. And she's able to do that because of the technology that we have. She interviews her camera and stays off the whole time and she gets the. Content that she needs to put out on episode and she's able to speak her mind and do her things and remain anonymous. You don't have to do video. You can do just audio only and put out great content. And why wouldn't you, but you can do it a couple of ways. You can do it solo. You can do an interview show like Carol's doing, let's be honest. It's probably the best. Like Carol doesn't have to do any work. She just asks a couple of questions. Is that guy in the hot seat or of the guest that does all the work, right? Carol's like, oh, tell me about this. And I talk for 20 minutes and he's like, this is great. Like, I don't have to do any work. You can do a co-hosted show. There's one like diapers and deployments. It's a co-hosted show. Two people, one was active duty, one was a military spouse. Talk about who had it worse. And then they bring on guests for part of the episode. There's people that do panel discussions, where the host is the guy and they asking, five, six people what they think about a certain topic. There's all sorts of different ways to do this. And the best part about. As you can change it. If you don't like the name of your podcast, you can change it in a couple of months. You don't like your podcast, or you can change in a couple of months, get in a fight with your co-host. You can do a solo show. You don't like doing it. Let alone starting the interview show. You can change it however you want to do it. But the whole thing. Is to just start. Most people that do start, they get about 10 episodes in and they're like, I don't have a million downloads yet. A fun fact, no one did. Right. Unless you're doing like… NFTs right now, I saw a guy's show. This was increasing by hundreds of thousands every day. Because of the new hot NFT space, but most people, 99.9999997% are not going to have that return. You have to come through, you have to do it on a regular basis, whether that's daily, weekly, monthly by way. Even if you did one a month, you would still have 12 pieces of content that you created. I recommend a weekly. Because think about Netflix when they binge like people get in, they want to listen to something. And if you produce one piece of content, it takes you 30 days to get your next piece. They're already on to some other show they've already forgotten about you. I definitely recommend at least one a week, but there's so many different ways to do this, but if you wait to make all the decisions or slog through all the possibilities, you'll never start. And if you do start, you want to commit to making 25 episodes. There's something like 2.5 million podcasts that are published right now. But 2.1 million of them haven't produced more than 10 episodes. So the people that are going to come on and be dedicated to the thing like Carol and myself, We're already in the top 20%, just because we have more than 10 episodes. I don't know where you're at in the standings and it doesn't really matter, but like I'm in the top 5% of podcasts in the world and I do a nonprofit show. Our audience just really isn't that big, but because then I'm showing up every week we can bring in week out bringing and providing value, valuable guests. You will be able to hear my show with Carol soon, probably in a few months, I've had a lot stacked up, but. If you do this and you stick with it and you stick to whatever your mission is, like, it's gonna pay off. And it's just so much fun thinking. Am I right Carol? Carol: Yeah, it totally is. I have been having great fun. It's a great way to connect with people and, and yeah, I think that's really important to just have people. Go into it, thinking this is for the long haul. This isn't a short, this is not an easy short return thing. It's a quick thing that builds over time. And I've heard of, I've seen a lot of podcast spaces where they're like, just, just ignore the downloads. Don't even pay any attention to them. Just keep doing your thing, keep showing up. And then as you say, like try not to overcomplicate it. And that could be challenging in the nonprofit sector because it's not usually just one person making a decision. It's many people being involved. But. You know that you can just get started with as, as simple as set up as possible. Not, getting all involved with complicated equipment at the beginning are all good places, just that, what's, what's the what's good enough. Get it out there. Travis: Oh, all this stuff builds over time. Especially if you’ve got a board. Money's tight, completely understood. Go with the free option to start with your phone, whatever earphones you have that have a mic on them and download the Anchor app. There's a couple. I'm not affiliated with Anchor. There's a couple of free apps that have a podcast hosting app that you can do it for free and get. Start creating content for your page and give people a reason to come back to your website over and over and over again. Don't just rely on outbound traffic, outbound, social media, direct mail. Don't just rely on those things. Give them a reason to come find you. Wouldn't you rather have volunteers showing up in your email and donors contacting you than having you have to contact all of them. Find a reason to create content. So they come to you. Carol: So I'd love to finish every episode with a game where I play, where I ask one random icebreaker question that I pulled somewhat randomly out of a box. So I've got three sitting here. What would you say is something that surprises people when they first hear it about. Travis: I mean, if, if it comes up in conversation, the murder attempts are usually pretty high in the list. Like, what did you do that people tried to kill you? It usually comes out. If I'm on video, I've got all this great stuff behind me. People are like, Ooh, what's that? Like, it was this thing. Like, you've got a Rubik's cube over there. Can you sell all of that? I had a guest stop, like in the middle of our thing, make me grab the cube and mix it. I can solve it. Any three by three of your weeks, Q in under a minute. So they're like, I have someone like, I want to see this Kenny be like, I've never seen it done in real life before, I've got my wings up here. I've got my sign that lights up. I've got the kingdom of Bahrain. I've got some awards from the Navy. Like this is from a war hammer from the veteran podcasts awards. All sorts of different things. People like you're so young, you've been in the military. How long have you just turned 40? They're like, holy cow, like I have no idea. Like how long have you been podcasting for this long? Like, have you had any success? I was like, well, four months after starting, I was number four in the U S and they're like, what? Like, I don't know. I don't know what it is about me or my life or what happens, but like, I've dodged death like six or eight times that I can remember that I can directly remember what happened and then not dying, obviously. I've been to all 50 states. I've been to 12 countries. I've got friends all over the world, especially I started meeting a lot of people doing the podcast and game, but if you're listening to this and you want to reach out to me, please do. But like, People in your area, meet him online, meet him for coffee, go meet people who will be so surprised to see all the amazing things that are right in your neck of the woods that you just never know. Because he never asked the question. Carol: Exactly. Exactly. So, what are you excited about? What's coming up for you next? Travis: Oh, let me tell you, let me tell you Carol. I know I told you yesterday cause you're on my show, but like we have created. The ultimate and complete podcast guide, which is available on the website or whatever, but we've taken that thing and we've created a course and you're like, no, there's a bunch of podcasters with courses right now. We are the only course it's being revoked. Even professional podcasters get tongue tied every now and again. We're the only professional podcast group that has created a course that's going to be available at the college level that is being reviewed right now at Forbes business school. At the University of Arizona, you're gonna be able to take my college course and get college. For podcasting here, hopefully within the next like four or five weeks, it will be available online as the only professional podcast, or to have an actual course where you get college credit, which is just really, really, really amazing. anyone that's in business communications, journalism, marketing, entrepreneurship, the possibilities are endless, and you have the ability to get college credit from a podcast course. Come on. Who wouldn't take that? And why wouldn't you? That's exciting. And my official Navy retirement is March 1st, so I'm less than two months from retiring after a career of over 21 years. Carol: Congratulations. And I think yeah, I am also stacked up with interviews, so this probably will be coming out just about that time. You'll be officially retired when this is published. So thank you. Thank you so much. It was great having this conversation and I hope. This inspires a couple of new non-profit related organizations to get into the podcast and game and, and share their wisdom, share their, their networks and get connected with people. So thank you so much. Travis: Hey, thanks, Carol. And anyone listening hop on over to nonprofit architect.org. There's a tab in there. That's got all my stuff, but we also have the non-profit podcast network. We've got 15 shows: my show and Carol’s show, and a bunch of other shows that talk through all the things that go on in the nonprofit world and nonprofit game. Maybe you like my show, maybe you don't, but you're going to find something that you do like that does resonate with you at nonprofitarchitect.org. Thank you so much again, and thank you, Carol, for having me on. Thank you. Carol: Thank you. I am taking away several things from our conversation. The first is the versatility of the podcasting medium and the hidden benefits – I have certainly experienced what Travis talked about in terms of giving me a way to access many people, their expertise and perspective. I learn so much from each guest and each conversation. And he also makes a good point – that you don’t have to make it complicated to start. You can start with a smartphone. You also learn as you go and get better at interviewing, at spotting an interesting quote to pull out. One thing to remember with this particular marketing channel – it is a slow burn and takes a while to build an audience. It’s a long game, not a quick win. Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Travis, their background and bio, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as April Koester of 100 Ninjas for her production support. We want to hear from you! Take a minute to give us feedback or ask a question at missionimpactpodcast.com/feedback. Until next time! |
HostI am Carol Hamilton, nonprofit consultant and podcast host. My passion is helping organizations cultivate healthy, inclusive cultures that live their values, fostering learning, creativity and results. Find me at Grace Social Sector Consulting and download free resources. Archives
January 2024
Categories
All
Grace Social Sector Consulting, LLC, owns the copyright in and to all content in and transcripts of the Mission: Impact podcast, with all rights reserved, including right of publicity.
|