In episode 84 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Heather Burright discuss:
how strategic planning, implementation and staff and volunteer skills development all fit together.  We delve into the critical aspects of strategic planning and its effective implementation. I highlight the importance of aligning the implementation plan with the organization's regular processes and cycles, emphasizing the need for a shorter time frame for implementation, typically six months to a year. I also talk about the significance of continuous evaluation, tracking progress, and making necessary adjustments to ensure the successful execution of the plan.
The conversation underscores the pivotal role of understanding and addressing the skills gap within the organization. Heather discusses how to identify the skill gaps that will undermine the success of your strategic plan and then the essential elements of creating a training program, focusing on relevance, meaningfulness, and a touch of fun to engage employees effectively. She emphasizes the importance of custom competency models and the value of building cross-functional relationships and trust within the organization to facilitate successful change management.

Episode outline:
(00:07:07) Strategies for Successful Strategic Planning Implementation Planning
(00:11:09) Integrating implementation into your regular practices
(00:12:36) Why training is a key piece to strategic plan implementation
(00:16:11) Maximizing Impact Through Whole Organization Involvement
(00:24:29) Listening to People: Key to Change Management

Guest Bio:
Leveraging 15 years of experience, Heather Burright, founder and CEO of Skill Masters Market, specializes in creating dynamic, people-centric solutions that drive business goals.  With her comes expertise in strategies for diversity, equity, and inclusion; instructional design; and change management.  She’s dedicated to identifying core competencies that are needed to see real results and to creating the learning strategies and solutions needed to develop those competencies.  

Important Links and Resources:
Heather Burright: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-burright/ 
Skills Masters Market: https://www.skillmastersmarket.com/
Learning for Good podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/learning-for-good-podcast-learning-and-development/id1621971310
Standards for Excellence Institute: https://standardsforexcellence.org/ 

Transcript:


Carol Hamilton

My guest today on Mission Impact is Heather Burright. Heather and I talk about how strategic planning, implementation and staff and volunteer skills development all fit together. Implementation planning and support can often be the missing link to really make a strategic plan come to life and be useful and relevant to an organization. A plan gets done – but if those big goals and initiatives are not integrated into the regular work of the organization – then the plan can sit on the proverbial shelf. And when the organization doesn’t commit to integrating, reviewing and updating the plan on a regular basis and make it part of their regular practices, it can go by the wayside.

I appreciated Heather’s point about – looking at the plan – not just from the point of view of who is going to do what by when – or from the point of view of budget implications – but also what are the skills that those putting the plan into action are going to need to make it a reality. Then with those skills in mind – where do people know and where do we need them to be? I don’t think many organizations are taking the time to think about this piece. It is something I will certainly be bringing forward in the future when I have the chance to work with organizations on their strategic plan implementation planning.

Mission: Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I’m Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. On this podcast we explore how to make your organization more effective and innovative. We dig into how to build organizational cultures where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers. All of this is for the purpose of creating greater mission impact.

Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategy consulting for nonprofits and associations. We help you move your mission forward, engage all voices and have fun while we are doing that. We combine left-brain strategy and analysis with right-brain wisdom about human complexities for a proven, whole-brain, whole-organization process through which every stakeholder thrives. Reach out to us for support and facilitation of strategic planning, mapping your impact, auditing your services for mission alignment and getting an organizational assessment. We especially love working with staffed nonprofits and associations with human centered missions.

Today Heather and I are doing a little bit of an experiment with this episode. Our conversation is appearing on Mission: Impact – and on Heather’s podcast, Learning for Good. I am looking forward to listening to Heather’s version and hearing what she took from our conversation.

Heather, I'm curious what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you and what would you describe as your why?


Heather Burright
I am motivated by a few core beliefs. I believe that people excel when they know what is expected of them and they can show up authentically at work. I believe people are worthy of investment, and I believe investing in your people makes them feel valued and gives them new skills and a new passion for their work. And I believe organizations are better when they empower their people to operate from their strongest capabilities. And so that's why I personally work relentlessly to create dynamic, people centric solutions for nonprofits and associations. I want the solutions to be both strategic, supporting the organization, but also compassionately human centered, supporting the people themselves. And I want nonprofits and associations at the end of the day to have exactly what they need to support their people and move their mission forward.


Carol Hamilton
I love that combination between the strategic and the human centered. That's definitely something that I'm always aiming for as well, enabling people to do well. I don't know whether it's bringing your whole self to work, but bringing whatever part of yourself that you want to, to work and then being fully supported in what you're being asked to do.


Heather Burright
Absolutely. But Carol, I'd love to hear a little bit about you too. Tell me a little bit about what I generally ask about people's career journey, but share a little bit about your journey to where you are, how you ended up here, and why you do what you do.


Carol Hamilton
After college, I worked at an organization that helped people get on talk shows, but we did it for all comers. And so quickly after that, I decided I really wanted to if I was going to be doing something like that. And I wanted to do it for organizations that I supported the mission of and so shifted into the nonprofit sector and worked for a variety of organizations over the course of my career with those human centered missions. And I continue to really enjoy working with organizations that center education and helping people thrive in their human capacity, but over time just became more and more interested in really what helps organizations work more effectively so that we can really move that mission forward strategically. And so over the last several years, I've been consulting to nonprofits and associations, helping them with strategies, strategic planning, mapping their impact, doing audits of their services, and then also organizational assessments. And I really enjoy doing all of those things to, again, try to help the organization hone in on what's really their core competency so that they can be less stressed as they try to move their mission forward.


Heather Burright
That's always a good thing, right? A little less stress. That never hurt anybody. So I love what you do. I think that what we do complements each other so well. You really help the organization set that strategy, be really clear about what they're trying to accomplish and do so, like you said, in a more effective way, hopefully a stress free or at least less stressful way.


Carol Hamilton
Probably not stress free.


Heather Burright
Right. At least less stressful. That's the goal. And so then I help organizations take that strategic plan, prepare their people to implement. And so we're so complementary in our work. And I love that. I know you mentioned that one of the things you do is the strategic planning process. What are some of the challenges that you see when it comes to actually implementing that strategic plan after it gets created?


Carol Hamilton
I think those challenges are part of the reason that strategic planning gets a little bit of a bad rap. People are always, oh, we went through that whole process and then the plan just sat on the shelf for probably more appropriately now, sat in a Google Drive or sat in a Dropbox folder and never was referred to. And I think it's that moving from the process to then how are we putting this into practice? How are we actually going to? I think making that translation, taking the time to think about how we are going to bring this into our regular planning processes, into our regular meetings, what's the cadence that we're going to be doing? All of those kinds of things, asking those questions and having a plan to implement really supports an organization making the most of the time that they've spent together to identify what's really important for them to move their mission forward over the next couple of years.


Heather Burright
That makes a lot of sense. You do all the work. A lot of the focus at the time is on the plan. If there's not a plan to then implement the plan, if it's not then integrated into your existing plans processes, then.


Carol Hamilton
It makes that integration. I think integration is really the key thing. It's like, how are you integrating it into how you regularly work rather than thinking of it as something special?


Heather Burright
That makes a lot of sense. And what do you recommend for nonprofits to overcome that or what have you seen them do in the past?


Carol Hamilton
A couple of different things. I think the first is for that implementation plan being realistic about the time frame. So your bigger plan may be that medium term time frame of three to five years, but the implementation plan really needs to be a shorter time frame. It could be six months, it could be a year. Really depends on the organization and its cycles and what makes sense. And then for that plan, that's where I recommend that people get into the real nitty gritty of who does what by when and how. All of those kinds of things because that year one or first six months, you're getting into those details, planning that out, and then having a process to say, okay, we've come to the end of this time period. What did we actually manage to accomplish? What do we still need to do? What is less relevant or what might need some tweaking? What have we done that we didn't expect to do? And so asking those questions on a regular cadence and having a way to track and then do the next six months or the next year implementation plan where you get into that nitty gritty. Because I think one of the challenges is when organizations try to nail everything down for that entire period, and that's where it starts ending up feeling a little ridiculous. It's like we can't actually predict what's going to be happening three years from now. I say don't waste your time trying to nail that down in terms of the specifics that make sense.


Heather Burright
When you put it into that detail of a plan, you have something that can help guide you as you're implementing. But like you said, it also allows you to go back and trust so that you can see, am I on the right track? Are there things I need to adjust? And doing that in those smaller increments makes a lot of sense. Have you found that nonprofits have a lot of success with that?


Carol Hamilton
I think when they are able to make a regular practice of it, know what's expected at that check in, do that within their regular meetings, whether it's staff meeting or at a regular cadence at a board meeting, and or both. Knowing what part of the plan the board is responsible for, what part of the plan is staff driven, and then just having someone be the champion to make sure that they're doing that as well, all of those things really help. And then realizing that it's not just about checking off what you've done or doing. I've seen a lot of groups have that green light, yellow light, red light of where things are in terms of progress, but also having those questions in mind so that you are making those adjustments as needed.


Heather Burright
That makes a lot of sense.


Carol Hamilton
Part of going into implementation, sometimes there's a new initiative or something that really needs some extra support for an organization to really make it happen. You work with creating training for nonprofits and association members. How do you see training actually supporting the implementation of a strategic plan?


Heather Burright
I typically look at a three pronged approach, and it does all go back to making it strategic and compassionately human centered. As I said in the beginning, it's very important to me. So the three pronged approach that I typically take is you want to make it relevant, you want to make it meaningful, and you want to make it fun. 

And I'm going to define what I mean by those because some people probably just went for fun what? So I think it's important that we define each of those. So the first was to make it relevant. And that to me is where you really go back and you look at that strategic plan, you look at the things you've said you really need to accomplish and you look at other supporting documents in the organization. What is your mission, what is your vision, what is your DEI commitment? Those kinds of things that also impact the work that you do. Review all of those things and identify the skills that your people are going to need to be successful. Start with skills. 

Skills are always the driver for any training if you want to see a behavior change. So identify the skills that are going to be needed to deliver on that strategic plan and continue on with your mission, vision and DEI commitment and then compare those skills to your learner's current skill set. So where are they now and where do you need them to be? And that change, that shift, that gap is what you want to focus on to make the training relevant. 

The next piece was to make it meaningful. And so this again, it is a little bit more of that compassionately human centered piece. If it's relevant, it will already be meaningful, right? Because it's going to impact them in their role and their job. But you also want to take the time to build cross functional relationships, trust, psychological safety, all of those foundational things that need to exist in the organization for the change to be successful. And any sort of opportunity that you have to bring people together, whether virtually or in person, is an opportunity to build those cross functional relationships, to build that trust and to build that psychological safety. So yes, there are self paced training options out there but a lot of nonprofits and associations are running in person or virtual gatherings as their training option. And so there is a huge opportunity to build that trust during that time. And then the last is to make it fun. 

And again, I use that word, I laugh every time I say it because sometimes people think about forced fun, which is not very fun. But what I mean by that is to do something unexpected within the experience, design that training so that there is something unexpected, so that they remember what they are learning. And you can do that in a variety of different ways. I've certainly used improv in a very light way. It can be intimidating for somebody who is not used to improv, right? But if you do it in a very light way, then it can be fun for people and it is memorable for people. You can use outside tools like Kahoot brings in a game experience. 

Or you could use Mural or Miro where they're working together collaboratively in a different way. There are different things you can do, different elements you can bring in to make it unexpected, to make it just a little bit playful. And then they're going to remember what they're learning and be better able to actually change that behavior. Bring the skills that you need them to bring in order to execute on that strategic plan.


Carol Hamilton
I love all the parallels between the actual planning process. I always want it to be for people to tell me that it was fun, that it was unexpected to them because they might have been dreading a strategic planning process. But what you described in terms of the relevance, meaningfulness and then fun, and that gap between, okay, what are the skills at the individual level? What are the skills that are needed for this initiative? And then at the individual level, for me, there's a lot of like when you look at that gap, essentially it's what the whole group has done as a cross functional group through the planning process. 

When I'm working with groups, I really want them to not have it just be a top down process, but really have it be a whole organization process. And in some cases when the organization is really large, that might be a slice of the organization. People representing the various constituencies and levels and stakeholder groups. But then you are looking at what is the current state, where are we right now and where do we want to be and what's the gap in between? What do we need to do? 

There's so many parallels and then with what you were describing in terms of training and how that can really support the plan moving forward and the actual planning process. One of the things that I always hear from clients is that by bringing people together, mixing them up into different groups, there's all sorts of other benefits that come out of the planning process because people get to know each other and understand their work better. But I really feel like thinking about what the skills that are going to be needed in a plan is probably a missing piece that very few organizations are actually looking at.


Heather Burright
I would agree. I have seen strategic plans where there is a people component baked into it, which is amazing, so fun to see. But even if there's not, there's probably something in there that's going to require something different of your people. And if that's the case, there is always room for skill development.


Carol Hamilton
Oftentimes the people piece is -- We want to have a thriving, healthy organizational culture. But really getting into what people need to be able to know how to do to make this a reality. Oftentimes another goal might be something around fundraising or working on board development and all of those things end up clarifying roles and responsibilities depending on what the stage of the organization is. where they are in the lifecycle of the nonprofit can all be different. But I love the piece about really honing in and probably because I came out of a learning background before I did this work, one of the things that I always have people do is make sure that we cannot have an action step without an action verb. It's like doing learning objectives.


Heather Burright
Yes, absolutely, I agree there.


Carol Hamilton
When have you seen organizations take that next step of doing that analysis of the skills and what are the competencies that we have now and what do we need to be able to move folks forward to be able to actually get this plan done?


Heather Burright
I love it when an organization brings me in at that point in the process because it really does set you up for success. Like you said, they're coming out of a strategic planning process where they've been really collaborative, hopefully, and they've been hearing from people and they've been taking a different approach to their work in some cases and then coming right behind that and saying, now let's do the same thing for your people. 

It's just a nice flow and it sets people up for success in the very beginning. So I have seen organizations do that and I love that. I think a lot of times it's a little bit later down the line when they realize they're ready to scale a program or a service or launch something new and they realize there's going to be a gap in their people being able to implement that thing. So it's a little bit later in the process, it's a little bit harder to go back and really capture that analysis and the energy that's already coming out of that strategic planning process. So I've seen it both ways. It's still doable the other way. If it's a little bit later in the process, definitely still doable. It just might feel a little bit like you're taking a couple of steps back before you can move forward.


Carol Hamilton
And I feel like, for me, as I think about projects moving forward, as I help organizations map out that implementation plan, certainly coming out of this conversation, one of the things that I'll be adding is what are the skills that are needed to move this forward and help people even think start to think about it. Because I think it's not necessarily a top of mind conversation for most folks.


Heather Burright
Absolutely. And one of the things we're talking about training today, but one of the things that I do is custom competency models. And that's a great time when you're getting ready to implement a new strategic plan. That's a great time to either create or revisit your existing competency model because you are able to say, okay, this is where we're headed and these are the skills that we need people to have in order to achieve that. And this is what that looks like. That one skill, right? One skill can look different to different people or in different roles. And so a competency model allows you to define what that skill is going to look like at various levels in the organization. And then you can build your entire learning strategy around that competency model, which is built around where you're headed as an organization.


Carol Hamilton
And I've seen those on the association side built for the field, but I've rarely seen them built for the people inside the organization.


Heather Burright
They work well in both scenarios.


Carol Hamilton
And for smaller organizations, what are some ways that they could tackle this, that there's a level of sophistication and resources that you need to be able to do some of those things? Are there some smaller chunks that they could bite off to get started?


Heather Burright
And this might be contrary to what other people would recommend, but I actually would recommend a competency model for a smaller, smaller organization as long as they have staff in place or a set of volunteers in place, because it does define the skills. You can always go and look for off the shelf training to help develop a particular skill. But if you don't know which skills you need, then buying a particular training isn't going to be all that helpful. So while a larger organization might say we want the custom competency model and we want the custom training because we're going to be training hundreds of staff over the next year or whatever, the case is a smaller organization. Taking the time to identify what those skills are that are going to be needed will allow them to be more particular, more strategic in what professional development they invest in in the future.


Carol Hamilton
If you want to start without having to start with a blank page, what comes to mind for me is the Standards of Excellence for nonprofit organizations, where you have an entire comprehensive set of standards. A few organizations go through the full accreditation process. A lot of other organizations use it as an assessment of where they are and would help them pull out those competencies so that you're not having to figure it out. Especially for smaller organizations, there's very little that hasn't been done before, so don't feel like you have to go it alone or start from scratch.


Heather Burright
Absolutely.


Carol Hamilton
What final words of advice for nonprofits creating training to support strategic planning implementation do you have?


Heather Burright
I think the first, and we've talked about it a little bit already, is to listen to your people. If you're going to be creating training to support strategic plan implementation, you have to know where your people are and where they need to go. Talking to senior leaders, asking supervisors, holding focus groups with the staff that are going to be impacted by the change. And really listening is a great way to understand what the gap is that you're going to need to fill. And then the second piece is, remember the change component of this. 

If you are doing anything different, there is a change and there's always something to fit in the strategic plan. Right. So tap into people's motivations. Why do they care? Why would they even want to make this change behavior, change, whatever it is, make sure they have the skills, which is where the training helps, and then surround them with the resources that they need to be successful.


Carol Hamilton
There’s so many parallels to the actual planning process of not starting small, starting larger, where you're really listening and hearing from, mapping out that map of stakeholders and constituents that you have and then getting that input from them. Feel it, figuring out how to pull their voices together so that you can make some decisions about what you need to do moving forward. 

I think people hesitate around change or at the top can feel like they've communicated enough times around the thing. And then I think there's a lot of it that can become a little bit of us and the people who want the thing, the people who are quote-unquote, resistors. And it goes back to listening to hearing really what is getting in their way, what hesitancies do they have so that that can be integrated into how you're supporting them with the resources that you were talking about?


Heather Burright
Absolutely. Part of surrounding them with resources is absolutely removing barriers. So you have to understand what they're experiencing in order to really make those changes happen. But Carol, I'm curious, any words of advice from you? Any final words, I guess, of advice for nonprofits undergoing the strategic planning process?


Carol Hamilton
I think starting with the whole organization and really thinking about how the whole organization is contributing to the planning process. And I think that also supports implementation because when people have been part of the process, they see themselves in it. They understand why decisions were made a certain way. They're more ready to roll up their sleeves and get ready to put the plan into action. And so while leaders might feel a little intimidated by, well, if it's just this huge cacophony of voices, how are we going to actually make decisions? But there are ways through a good facilitated process to ensure that you have a succinct plan at the end and folks know what they need to do.


Heather Burright
Absolutely. And I definitely see that in the needs analysis side on competency models and training as well. So, like you said, there's just so much overlap in the way that we work the process that we use and then so many good complementary pieces to it as well. Starting with that strategic plan and then moving into what do our people need to be able to implement?

Heather Burright
Carol, it's been so fun to have this conversation with you. Thank you.


Carol Hamilton
Definitely and talk about change. You're going to be helping me tweak my practice in terms of working with organizations in that implementation planning phase.


Heather Burright
I love it.


Carol Hamilton
I appreciate that. Well, thank you.


Heather Burright
Thanks, Carol.

Carol Hamilton
Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Heather, her full bio, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as Cindy Rivera Grazer of 100 Ninjas for her production support. Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategic planning, mapping for impact, & mission alignment audits for nonprofits and associations. We combine Left-brain strategy and analytics + right-brain wisdom about human complexities for a proven, whole-brain, whole-organization process through which every stakeholder thrives. Reach out to us for support and facilitation of strategic planning, mapping your impact, auditing your services and getting an organizational assessment.
We especially love working with staffed nonprofits and associations with human-centered missions.

Please take a minute to rate and review Mission Impact on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps other people find the podcast. We appreciate it! And until next time, thank you for everything you do to contribute and make an impact.​

In episode 83 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Alexander Lapa delve into the benefits of using a Customer Relationship Management (CRM) system like Salesforce for nonprofits. These include improved data management and streamlined processes. Alexander shares his expertise in setting up and optimizing CRM tools for nonprofits. He explains why having a consultant to guide organizations through the complexities of finding the right tool to meet where they are in their stage of development is helpful. The conversation also explores challenges in fully utilizing a CRM system and the need for training and support to empower users as well executive sponsorship. Integration, AI, and organizational culture in nonprofit CRMs are also discussed.

​Episode Outline:
 
(00:08:30) Benefits and Challenges of Using a CRM
(00:13:36) Leveraging CRM for Effective Communication
(00:18:28) Integration and AI in Nonprofit CRMs
(00:23:40) Challenges with CRM Adoption
 
Guest Bio:
 
Alex is a Salesforce Architect & Advisor who helps nonprofits improve their social impact. He has 10 years of Salesforce and nonprofit experience and 20 years of CRM experience.
 
Aside from working on CRM projects, Alex is host of "Agents of Nonprofit". It's a weekly podcast that interviews guests about products and services which help nonprofits. It's often discusses the benefits of technology, and currently has nearly 70 published episodes.
 
Alex also shares his experience in a short daily email, helping junior Salesforce consultants level-up their knowledge, deal with challenging clients, and advocate for a digital nomadic lifestyle.
 
 
Episode Links:
 
https://dryadconsulting.com/welcome
 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexanderlapa
 
https://podcast.agentsofnonprofit.com/
 

Transcript:
Carol
Welcome, Alex, welcome to mission impact.


Alex
Thank you. Thank you for having me.


Carol
So I'd like to start each conversation with just finding out a little bit more about what drew you to the work that you do. What would you describe as your why or your motivation?


Alex
Yeah, great question. I've been doing salesforce because I'm a salesforce architect, working not exclusively, but definitely specialized with nonprofits. And when I started working with salesforce, at the same time that I had some for profit clients, I also had a nonprofit client. This was about ten years ago now. And I just found over the years that my favorite moments, the ones that I look forward to, the meetings I look forward to, the projects I enjoyed working on most were the ones related to nonprofits. And I think it has something to do with the fact that nonprofits, the focus of nonprofits, are not about profits. It's not about profit, it's not about how much money you can make, how wealthy can we make their shareholders. It's how big of an impact we can make, how can we help our community? And that really drew me in. The people were less about their egos, more about the impact or the type of impact that it can have. And it just felt like that was my tribe. And I've been doing it now for quite a while. I would say maybe three years now I've been specialized with nonprofits, and it's a labor of love.


Carol
Yeah, whatever the mission, when I'm working with organizations, I just always appreciate the people who are drawn to this work. It definitely makes a huge difference.


Alex
We promote each other, we support each other. It definitely feels much more of a community than any other for profit. I mean, I've worked with some great for profit companies as well. I can't knock all of them, but it's a different mindset altogether. And the reward, I mean, I want to feel like I've accomplished something at some point during the day. I want to feel like I've contributed in some small way, and using my knowledge to help leverage and improve nonprofits seems to be working for me, at least at the moment.


Carol
So you said that you're a salesforce architect, so can you say a little bit more about what that means and what being an architect in that sense entails?


Alex
Certainly. So salesforce is a company and it's a platform. It's actually more than just a CRM these days, a client relationship management tool. It's a platform which basically means it gives you all the tools that you need to do all your CRM activities, but it's also very extensible. You can add your own functionality on top of the platform and it is pretty much the top of the food chain in terms of complexity for CRMs, especially for the nonprofit industry. But basically any industry I tend to see nonprofits focus more on them moving up the food chain from maybe pen and paper to Excel to maybe a basic CRM to maybe a more advanced CRM to salesforce. They work their way generally up that ladder. I don't see too many nonprofits moving away from salesforce and because it has all those features and functionalities and great things, but because it has all this stuff, there's a lot of complexity to it. So having an advisor or an architect that comes in and tells you look, this is what you should do. Here's how you should set up your programs, your services, your volunteering, your cases and so forth, as opposed to having someone who might be a bit technical but doesn't know the salesforce platform itself. mucking around and building this spaghetti of mess because it is very possible to do so and then have to have someone like me come in and rescue them from that situation. So having an architect, having a consultant come in and help you from the early phases will really pay you dividends toward the end and make sure that you're leveraging your entire investment from salesforce.


Carol
Yeah, I'm laughing because I worked for an organization that used Salesforce, but I think we probably used this much of the capacity because we spent a lot of time trying to get a particular staff person trained in it. But there was such a learning curve that to really maximize its capacity, it didn't translate to the rest of us really being able to really leverage it. And it's funny that I feel like over the period that I've been doing this podcast, oftentimes when we're talking about change management or technology implementation, oftentimes the example that people end up using is around CRM or helping people. Move from that many Excel spreadsheets that everybody has their own and we don't have it up to date or common to some type of client management system. What are some of the benefits that you see of an organization actually taking the time to really make sure that a system like that is working for them?


Alex
Just to go back to the previous point for a second, we actually have a term in the salesforce ecosystem. We call them accidental admins because the term that we use for salesforce administrators are the ones building the platform. And if you are just thrown into that role, you become an accidental admin. So there's definitely a story that we could dive into for that. But to answer the question that you there is, like I said, salesforce is really the top of the food chain in my perspective. There are some smaller nonprofits that I've seen use Salesforce and there's some great benefits they can get out of it. But the key element is just using a CRM altogether. I would never recommend using pen and paper even if you were to start, just go to Excel as your entry starting point. And when you're a small nonprofit. If you're just starting off, that's a very viable CRM. You don't need anything fancy, any bells and whistles. As long as you're tracking things and you're not losing track of things. You're managing your donors, you're managing your constituents, your volunteers, whatever your organization is doing, that's great. The fact that it's digital gives you a leg up. Because when the time comes, as you're growing as a nonprofit, and when the time comes where you've outgrown the capacity of an excel program, for example, it's much easier to shift that or import that into a CRM of sorts, as opposed to pen and paper, which then it's harder to import. So the idea is to start using a CRM and pick a CRM that fits your needs at this point in time with a certain amount of understanding that there is going to be potentially growth in your future. And we all want growth, of course. So some CRMs, for example, not talking about salesforce, but some CRMs offer tiered programs where you start off with a free model of the platform, giving you basic functionality. But they do have a more advanced and a more enterprise level version that as your organization grows, you can grow into that to give you more capability, more functionality.


Carol
What are some of the signs that it's time for an organization to move to that next step?


Alex
Basically, it doesn't work for you anymore either. Things get lost along the way. You're not able to keep track of donors anymore. You're not able to do your day to day operations. There's a limiting factor, like Excel, for example. It's great for if you're one person, but the minute you become two or three, now you have versions that you're passing around. Maybe you're using SharePoint as a common area, but you'll naturally feel that there's a breaking point that you just can't scale. As your organization grows, you can't have 1020 people working in an Excel file. It just doesn't work. So making sure that reading the signs, basically saying that we're not able to grow, we're not able to scale, doesn't support all the users that we need to have as part of our organization. These would all be signs to say, maybe it's worth now investigating the next level up in terms of a CRM.


Carol
And once an organization has a CRM, I've seen instances where pretty large organizations have a pretty robust system, and yet staff are still defaulting back to those Excel spreadsheets by exporting some data, and then they're keeping that up to date versus always getting it back in the system. What are some ways that you help organizations actually get people to really use what the system can do for them?


Alex
It's actually a very common phenomenon, and it's basically a matter of control and comfort. If a user, if a person doesn't feel comfortable using the system, they won't know that a lot of people are much more comfortable with Excel than any other platform or any other program, so that they know that they can rely on it. It's usually a matter of training and of change management, of being able to feel supported, to feel like they can be empowered to use the CRM, and then they will use it, especially if they see that the more they put into it, the more they get out of it. The whole idea of using a CRM is every moment you spend putting in data to the CRM, you will get much more out of it. It's an ROI return on your investment. So it's making sure that people feel supported, that they have the necessary training as they're onboarded and keeping them going, making sure they can provide feedback in case there's ever a situation that they do have, whether it's a positive or a negative type of feedback, and just supporting them as they go, saying, don't worry. There is a benefit to using a CRM in the salesforce ecosystem. For example, we have this model. If it's not in salesforce, it doesn't exist. And the idea is that by having it in a centralized system like a CRM, everyone can benefit from it. So you can see, potentially, all the interactions you've had with a particular person outside, all the times you've made phone calls, every time you've done an outreach, an email, anytime they've done a donation or volunteered or applied for. A program or service so that when a new person comes to your organization, they can see that holistic view of that person and have better conversations, have more personalized conversations.


Carol
And I think for me, what was a stumbling block sometimes was that I wasn't using the system very often, and so I'd forget how to navigate. But what you're talking about is really everybody logging all those interactions, all those conversations means that right. A new person then has that history. But then also for organizations that are across different multiple departments, they have a sense of what's been the most recent communication with that person versus the volunteer person reaching out, and then the donor person reaching out the next day. And clashing and overwhelming folks because they're not coordinated.


Alex
And imagine a situation where a person does not want to be contacted, and there's no central point that says do not contact. And then that person keeps on getting contacted, gets frustrated every time they get a call or an email. It's like, listen, I don't want to be contacted. Thank you, but no thank you. You don't want to have that disturbance, let's call it. And having that central point, that source of truth is really, really important. And that's what a CRM can provide.


Carol
So you talk a lot about really leveraging those systems. What are some ways that you see organizations really getting the most out of that investment?


Alex
It's about empowering the people that are using the system. Again, as long as all your team members are using the CRM effectively, efficiently, then you'll see a great return on your investment. If people are resistant, if they don't want to use it, they're more comfortable using other tools. Then you either have to train them more and empower them more, or provide alternatives. Find maybe a person that can serve as an administrator to help digest and translate what they're doing into salesforce or into a CRM. Sorry if I use salesforce, I'm just so used to using that word for CRM. It doesn't matter if it's what CRM it is. The idea is that you want that central source of truth because the more you put into it again, the more you'll get out of it.


Carol
What are some of the things that organizations need to think through when they're choosing which system is going to work for them?


Alex
Yeah, it's a great question as well. So I mentioned the growth part, I think knowing that as you're getting into or as you're choosing your CRM, knowing that the CRM has various tiers that you can grow with, just so you don't want to change CRMs on a yearly basis because of the change management that's involved. So starting off with, well, starting off first of all, what are your business requirements? What do you hope to achieve with the CRM? How many users are going to be using it? What is your budget? There are hundreds, maybe thousands of CRMs now, a lot of which are, or at least a good portion of which are related to nonprofits focused on nonprofits. I mean, there are some fantastic ones if you're only doing fundraising, for example, there are some fantastic nonprofit fundraising CRMs that do that job really, really well, but it could be very, very narrow in terms of their scope. So make sure, that maybe today you're doing fundraising, but, within a few months from now, you might be volunteering. Making sure that the CRM that you choose or will plan to choose can do both is important. And then doing some because there are so many to choose from, the next question is, well, how do I choose? Ask for recommendations, make sure you have the requirements, and then try to shortlist it down to, let's say, three CRMs, and then have the vendor of those CRMs do a presentation to your organization. Do this proper assessment where you have various individuals at your organization evaluating whether this works for you on multiple criteria. I've seen a large organization do that not so long ago when they were choosing their CRM. And it was a wonderful exercise to validate and to prove to the organization that this was the right CRM for their needs.


Carol
Yeah, I would think that one of the steps would be thinking through who are all the people that either are going to be using it in terms of kind internally, but then also all the different kinds of categories of groups that you're working with, whether it's donors or volunteers. And sometimes a volunteer will become a donor. So they could be in multiple categories. The people that you're serving, people who are coming to programs and constituents, all of those different aspects. And so it can get pretty complex on what all those interactions are.


Alex
It can, and that's why there's a certain look ahead that you need to do. How far is your runway if you get into this CRM today? How long do you think it could last? And if it's longer or less than a year, then it's probably not a good fit. If it's something you think you can grow and scale with for a good measure of time, it's probably a better fit.


Carol
What are some of the challenges of that organization? We've talked about some of the challenges in terms of kind of. I think one of the ones that can be the hardest is just getting people to use it. What are some other things that come up as organizations try to really make the most of the CRM that they're using?


Alex
Usually CRMs are not in a silo, that is to say they need to connect with other systems, if only your email system. So making sure that for example, it connects to your Gmail or your Outlook, just to have that communication so you don't have to copy and paste emails from your email system to CRM. Maybe you can send emails from your Outlook or Gmail and that'll be captured in your CRM. So all that integration would be really important. Not just emails, but contacts, calendar events and so forth. Mobile support would be a consideration as well. Some CRMs offer a mobile, not necessarily for donors, but a good thing for volunteers to make sure you can have volunteers checking in, checking out, offering their availability and so forth. Sometimes SMS support could be really cool as a feature. Again more for alerts and stuff like that. And then of course the cool kid on the block these days is about AI and whether the CRM has any AI capabilities to help leverage your team even further.


Carol
So in terms of AI, what are some of the ways that that gets integrated into well, maybe I have seen it and I didn't even know it was happening, but I don't feel like I've necessarily seen that aspect. But obviously it's all the conversation right now.


Alex
It is.


Carol
How are you seeing it show up?


Alex
It's showing up everywhere. People are still trying to figure out how to make it work for them. And there is a bit of an exploratory phase for nonprofits, I would generally say. It's good to be curious, it's good to keep abreast of what's happening in the AI market. There is certainly the Chat GPT of course that tends to be the most popular ways that you can leverage it to write your grants, for example, or write first drafts of things. And I wouldn't recommend using it like that for sure. So you are comfortable using AI. But more than that, I think it's still too premature because we're still overall as an industry trying to figure out where it fits and how it fits and how well it fits. But the more you can use those kinds of the chat GPTs of the world to be able to write, let's say, first drafts of certain things, or give you ideas, that can be very useful because sometimes your ideas are just new ways. You could prompt, for example, to say, find me, or give me some common ways to reach out to people who have lapsed in donations. And that could give you a whole bunch of ideas so you don't have to think about it all yourself. It's a starting point. So those are common ways that I see AI working for nonprofits.


Carol
Yeah, and I appreciate that it's thinking about it as your first draft so you can shift from that blank piece of paper, blank screen to, okay, at least I've got something to work with. How are CRM providers integrating that into their systems?


Alex
How are you seeing? Yeah, I can't speak for all CRMs, of course. I know that they're trying to throw it in there as much as possible. I know Salesforce is doing that. They've had a version of an AI for a long time, which they called Einstein, and they're trying to integrate some of these AI more and more now into writing sales emails, for example, or analyzing data, especially if you have a lot of data prompting the AI to provide, for example, the list of top ten possible donors or donors or people who could be potential donors. These are all different ways of not having to leave your Salesforce instance and use your Salesforce data in order to be able to analyze it and get data from it. The AI though version, that's the one that everyone is talking about in terms of Einstein AI is still in a closed beta at the moment, which means only a select number of clients are able to use it in that salesforce ecosystem. But there's still the capability of not using your own data in your CRM and talking to an AI to help you get that through that writer's block, right?


Carol
Yeah, as a way to get yourself out of writer's block. I appreciate that. That's a good point. What are some other things that help as an organization is wanting to make that shift? They've gone through that requirements process. They've made a decision about which one they're moving forward with, what helps that project go smoothly in terms of implementation.


Alex
I'm hiring a consultant for an architect. The idea is that I tend to find a lot of nonprofits that don't have a lot of technical knowledge. So having someone, it depends, of course, on the complexity of the CRM, but having someone guide them through that process, handhold them through the process, someone who's been through that process multiple times and is now almost like a cookie cutter. They talk your talk, they know your language, they know your market, they know the CRM, they know what problems you tend to generally have and what pitfalls to avoid. It'll make the whole process significantly easier. And that would be for sure. That is a huge benefit and fantastic return on your investment. In addition to that, I would add making sure that training and documentation is very strong. Again, as I mentioned earlier, when your people are empowered to use the CRM, the more they are likely to use it. And if they don't remember what to do to your point earlier, having some documentation to go back to or training videos that they can reference will help raise their knowledge once more. We also know that a big part of or a big problem for nonprofits is churn as employees come and go. So having this training material and documentation will help new people on board more quickly so that they can get up and running more quickly.


Carol
Yeah, I was involved in a big CRM project when I was inside an organization. It's now multiple years ago, but I felt like the big piece that was an afterthought was that training and documentation and a lot of work got done ultimately to do that. But it never then was actually effectively shared with people. So that it ended up being a resource that got stuck on a shelf or lost in a computer file that people didn't know about, having it, doing it, but also making sure everybody knows how to access it.


Alex
Too, and making sure it stays up to date. Because if it gets outdated, it goes stale. Then there's no point having it. You have to remember, a CRM, like everything else, is just a tool, right? It's like a hammer. It's a very powerful hammer, but it's still a hammer. You can't use the hammer for anything in your renovation, in your work, but if you use it properly, it will be very good. And it's also about using it properly. So make sure you use it when you're supposed to use it and how to use it, as opposed to just trying to use it for everything. The expression once I have a hammer, everything becomes a nail. Using it properly and making sure you know how to use it properly, the training, the processes around it is half the equation. Technology tends to work itself out. Usually that's not the biggest issue. The biggest issue is change management and adoption. And so having all this in place really will help with that.


Carol
So you mentioned it's a tool, it's for a specific purpose. What are ways that you've seen people where they've actually tried to have it do more than it should be doing.


Alex
Yeah. I can only give you examples for Salesforce because Salesforce, like I said, is more than just a CRM. You can use it as an order management tool. You can use it as a lead management tool, you can do emailing with it. But like everything else, there are limits to what it can do. You can sometimes get past those limits by adding packages or add ons to it, but you can make it into a monster. It's like a Lego block. Imagine a Lego system where you have an infinite number of pieces. You can build some awesome things, but you can build a complete, utter mess. So no, you're not knowing what you should do, what you shouldn't do. There's a general rule 80% to 20% type stuff where you want to make sure that you are covering your needs without going too custom, without going too personal. In Salesforce, you can use code called Apex to really customize the platform. But the more you do that, the more you have to maintain it. It becomes less scalable or it has a tendency of becoming less scalable, less like, with great power, comes with great responsibility. You want to make sure that as you're using it, you're using it within its proper confines and you're not just trying to stretch that balloon to a point where it will just eventually break.


Carol
Yeah, that's definitely another thing that I've seen and probably 10-15 years ago where these systems weren't quite as powerful as they are today. And so organizations were really investing in doing a lot of that customization, but then when a new update rolled around, all of that got lost. And so in a way, the less you do of that, it could be where you're better off. Yeah. So what other things do people need to think about as they're trying to really move forward with one of these projects? Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you should have mentioned and need to be on the checklist of things to watch out for?


Alex
On the technical side, I think we've covered at least the major points. The rest is really about the executive sponsorship, for example, making sure that everyone in the team is aligned with where we're trying to go and really making sure that the outcomes are clear. You need to know your destination before you get into a car, otherwise you're going to be driving randomly. So knowing where your destinations are and building in a way that allows you to offer an MVP a minimal viable product, let's say as a first release. Just making sure people get comfortable using the tool before you build the Cadillac version or the fully enhanced, fully optimal version. Salesforce has another model called Crawl Walk Run, which basically means get the thing in their hands, get the feedback going, get the comfort higher and then you start adding more and more features, more functionality, more automation to get to that walk and then crawl phase. So I think that applies to any technology as well, that is to adopt slowly, keep on improving, keep on iterating to make these improvements. I don't think that the first version is going to be your last version, but make sure you know where you're going because otherwise you're going to get lost.


Carol
Yeah. And you mentioned executive sponsorship and I would imagine that just because of who's in what generation and generational comfort with technology and changes, that at least in my experience, it's been sometimes the people at the top of the organization who are the hardest to get to adopt a new system. What have you seen that's been helpful there?


Alex
Yeah. So the executive sponsor has to be open to the idea, right? And they have to make sure that they're well informed, that they understand the benefits of it at a high level. So going back to that architect consultant, that can be one person that can help indicate and show the benefits. Having certain project champions or CRM champions can be another measure where you have got people internally who maybe have used a CRM before in another organization that can rally the troops and get people excited about what's to come and what the possibilities can be would be another way to do it. And they can also whisper ears into the ear of the executive sponsor. So just making sure that, again, things are very tangible, things are very clear on where we're going, how to get there. Yeah, I would start from that.


Carol
Awesome. So on each episode, I like to ask each guest what permission slip would you give to nonprofit leaders? Or what would you invite them to consider as they avoid being a martyr to the cause, which is my tagline for the podcast trying not to be a martyr to the cause and how they can work towards cultivating a healthy organizational culture. What would be your invitation or permission slip?


Alex
I would say find balance. It can't be all work, no play. I know it's not very techie or very CRM, but from my perspective, it's finding balance as much as it is a labor of love. There is a certain labor element to it. So being able to balance that with some relaxation, some calmingness, some downtime, not feeling the challenge, especially when you have a CRM up and running, is the ability to always keep it up to date, to have this real time concept. So being able to acknowledge the fact that there are moments in your day that you just don't want to be accessible or you don't want to talk to a CRM or think about a CRM, and that's okay. You have to have some downtime to give. Yourself the energy to be better at when you're on your absolutely, absolutely.


Carol
So where can people find you? How can they be in touch?


Alex
Yeah, so the main way to reach me is through my website. It's Dryadconsulting.com Dryad Consulting.com. I also have a newsletter for salesforce consultants, and it's called thegoodenoughconsultant.com. And lastly, the podcast that I have, which is also related to nonprofits, it's called Agents of nonprofit, and that is Agentsofnonprofit.com.


Carol
And it's a great podcast. So yeah, check it out. All right, well, thank you so much. Thanks for coming on mission impact.


Alex
It's my pleasure, Carol. Thank you for having me.

In episode 81 of Mission: Impact, Danielle Marshall and Carol Hamilton have another ‘learning out loud’ conversation where we delve into the evolving landscape of nonprofit work, focusing on key themes:
 
🔥 Burnout and Beyond: We kickstart the discussion by addressing the prevalent issue of burnout, which has long haunted the sector. Discover how it has been exacerbated by recent events and how individuals and organizations are tackling it head-on.
 
🌟 Redefining Success: We dive deep into the changing definitions of success. It's no longer just about productivity and traditional measures. Learn how individuals are crafting new narratives and aligning their actions with their values.
 
💡 Deepening Impact: Explore the shift from relentless scaling to strategic deepening. We uncover innovative approaches to maximize impact, even with limited resources.
 
💼 Resource Reallocation: Get insights into how nonprofits are rethinking resource allocation. It's not just about budgets but also about investing time, human resources, and energy more intentionally.
 
🎯 Mission Focus: Discover the power of niche specialization. What are you doing to hone your focus to prevent mission drift and build confidence in your abilities? Do you have time built into your day or week for intentional and quiet reflection and strategic thinking?
 
🤝 Collaboration and Partnerships: We explore the art of collaboration and how nonprofits are building meaningful partnerships, passing tasks, and referrals, all while fostering trust and growth.
 
🌈 Well-Being and Productivity: Learn about the importance of individual and team well-being. How are you incorporating joy and playfulness into your life – inside and outside of work?

​Timestamped Outline:

(00:03:47) Reevaluating values and redefining success during the pandemic
(00:07:37) Fostering Internal Cohesion for Organizational Success
(00:10:09) Redefining success through thoughtful resource allocation
(00:14:19) Narrowing focus for increased impact and success
(00:22:33) Creative thought organization with mind mapping
(00:36:59) Redefining emergencies and prioritizing strategic thinking
 
Guest Bio:
Danielle is an inclusive leader focused on strengthening collaboration among teams, leaders, and stakeholders to foster problem-solving, create solutions, and improve culture. She finds her inspiration in leading systemic change work that promotes equity and inclusion.
 
Danielle founded Culture Principles in response to a persistent need to operationalize Racial Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion metrics, centering REDI goals and creating accountability systems. She supports clients through her Mapping Equity Framework focused on Unearthing Knowledge, Elevating Strategy, and Transforming Sustainability. She centers her work around organizational assessment, racial equity learning intensives, and the development of racial equity action plans. Understanding that each organization arrives at this work from different perspectives, she utilizes assessment in building a customized strategy for each unique partner.
 
Previously Danielle served as a non-profit leader for 20+ years and today works on strategy development that enables nonprofits to achieve equitable mission-driven results. Danielle holds a Master's degree in Industrial-Organizational Psychology from Louisiana Tech University and draws on her background as an I/O psychologist in applying a racial equity lens to organizational policies, practices, and programs. She is a Certified Diversity Professional (CDP)/ Executive Coach (ACC).
 
During her playtime, you can find Danielle traveling, knitting, and kayaking in all 50 states.
 
Episode Links:

• Reflection tools:
  • Link to weekly review on Grace website
  • Link to 6 month review on Grace website
    
    

●      https://www.culture-principles.com/
●      https://www.linkedin.com/in/danimarshall/

Transcript:
Carol Hamilton
Welcome, Danielle. Welcome to Mission Impact.


Danielle Marshall
Thanks, Carol. Good to be back.


Carol Hamilton
This is the second of and I'm borrowing this language from you, Danielle, the Learning Out Loud episode. Danielle came on on episode 75 to start. Just a series of conversations that we're going to have checking in every couple months or so on what we're seeing in terms of the nonprofit sector and our clients that we're working with and  having a chance to  go a level deeper than I typically do when I'm doing a one time interview. So really excited for the conversation.


Danielle Marshall
Same. Likewise.


Carol Hamilton
One of the things that I've been talking about a lot with folks is just the prevalence of burnout in the sector. And also probably I feel like burnout predated the pandemic and then was exacerbated by the pandemic, like many things. But the thing that I see is different is the way in which people are really  rethinking and renegotiating their relationship with work. And I'm just curious what  you're seeing in the work that you're doing around that.


Danielle Marshall
Sure. I think I'm having a similar experience in terms of the folks that I come into contact with. And again, I would agree with you that it predated, let's say, COVID. However, I think the period where people were able to be home, many people were either furloughed or laid off. It caused a global, quite frankly, opportunity for us to sit back and just reflect on what was important. And I think we would be remiss to not bring into the conversation all of what was happening. So, again, there was loss of life. There were people who found themselves who used to be doing quite well financially in dire straits at the moment. There's a lot of sickness going on. And I think it was a moment even beyond just thinking about work, like, what are my priorities? How do I want to live my life? And so I've definitely seen some carryover of that thought process, thankfully, quite frankly, into our work today.


Carol Hamilton
Just a chance, well, being confronted across many fronts with the fact that we are finite beings. We don't go on forever. And so what does that mean? How am I living my life right now? Is that in alignment with my values? And maybe I just hate to say that it was slowing down because I think in many ways it wasn't, but there was a different way of time, space maybe, for people to be with their thoughts, think about what's important. And certainly for me, it also predated the pandemic, so I started to try to rethink that by moving into my well. If you turn 50, are you moving into your 6th decade? I guess so. I never quite get that one right, but hitting that half well, probably more than halfway mark and thinking, okay, what do I want to do with the rest of my time, whatever that time might be, and is how I'm spending my time, the way that I want to be doing it going forward. And part of that has just been for me trying to unpack how much I had internalized the Protestant work ethic and my worth being tied up in my productivity, the outcomes that I produce, all of that and really trying to untangle all of that.


Danielle Marshall
I have a deep appreciation for that last piece that you mentioned in particular because I think what I saw many people, including myself, going through during this period was a redefining of success, right? So we've all been told on some level what success means. Much of it has been tied to Protestant work ethic, but even what it means to be successful in one's career, what it means to be successful in one's family life, like, are you married? Do you have children? Right? These are things that were set up as norms that people were expected to adhere to. And I think what I witnessed, and particularly as I add a racial lens to this as well, is it's almost like people got a collective memo at the same time that was like, we're taking a pause on the way we used to do things. And it's not to say that there was one particular way to move forward, but what we want to do is start asking a deeper question of is this meaningful to me? Who am I today? And we had a lot of time to think about that while we were home for two years. Plus, who am I today? Who do I want to be? Should I be telling this story to my kids, my grandkids, or any future person that would come across my life story? Did I lean into the values and ideals that I espouse? And so that feels really important to the conversation in terms of success, because what a lot of folks realize is I don't actually subscribe to the success that is normal. It's just a narrative we've been told.


Carol Hamilton
And I think a lot of people are in the nonprofit sector because in some ways they're already stepping away from those  typical measures of success. Very few people go into the nonprofit sector to make a lot of money. If you want to do that, you're going to go into something where you do make a lot of money. And at the same time, we're still in a capitalist society, we're still measured by a lot of those things, like how big is your budget as an organization? All of those different things factor into what people see as successful or not successful at the organizational level. So we still have those pressures even when as individuals, we may have at one point made an affirmative decision to say, that's not my life goal. And then, of course, there's the flip side of having made that decision, the extent to which that can be really  weaponized against people 100%.


Danielle Marshall
I think it speaks volumes to this idea of what it takes to disrupt systems. Right. So I may have changed my mind, or the next person may have changed their mind about what they want to sit in, how they're defining success. But it does not mean that my team members or the organization or the greater world or sector is following along with that. And I think what I've seen that's been particularly interesting is all the conversations that are happening with multiple stakeholder groups around Redefining that I think the first group I consciously remember, and some of this started even pre COVID, was with the foundations and the funders where people were saying, we believe in metrics. We think they're important, but there's more than just how many people were served, how many trees were planted that we need to actually think about in the grand scheme of things. And as I think about the metrics today, it's really interesting to hear how many companies are now talking about satisfaction rates among employees and engagement and retention, because they're understanding it isn't simply about coming to the job and making the widget. Right. There is something more about building a cohesive team that still works to uphold nonprofit missions. But we're part of that process. We're part of the mission because we have to be in a healthy space in order for us to leverage the best of our teams.


Carol Hamilton
I think that recognition of it's not just about the outside mission, it's not just about how many people we served, but how are we working with each other inside the organization, and is that also in alignment with the values that we espouse?


Danielle Marshall
And that feels like oftentimes it's in misalignment, quite frankly, even to today, I'm seeing many more people care for the conversation overall, but it doesn't mean that it seems to be working for everyone. Right. They're aware that they need to have this conversation, but we've not been in a place, quite frankly, as a society where we have cared for our people in that way most of the time. We came from an industrial place where it was like, hey, I need you on the factory line making X amount of product, et cetera, in this many hours. And I think some of that mindset has very much carried over to even how we do our work in nonprofits. We're serving this many people because one of the things that's hard for me sometimes when I think about nonprofits is I understand that our ability to scale who we serve has a lot to do with the greater impact that we have. But if we're not providing quality for our staff, that translates into not providing the best quality for the communities that we say that we care about at this moment.


Carol Hamilton
There's a definite ripple effect, and you're not setting up your staff for success in being able to deliver those programs if they're constantly being expected to just burn themselves out. Before we got on the call, I was thinking about this in terms of I feel like a lot of folks and certainly there's an extent to which this is outside of folks control, but in a lot of the conversations I hear, I feel like people put that more of it is outside of their control than actually is. That with the pressure to always be doing more, always being growing, that that's a have to versus we're choosing how we're going to expand or not expand. And even looking at, okay, if we were to just wonderful to have a growth strategy and plan and for how we're going to increase our resources. But if we were actually just to think about what our current resources are right now, what can we reasonably do with those.


Danielle Marshall
and what could we do differently? I know the last time that we met we talked a little bit about language. And so even as I hear you say growing and growing, what does that mean for us? So if we have a budget, and it doesn't matter if your budget is 500,000, a million, 20 million, what could we be doing differently with the resources that we have available today? Because I think some of the challenges that we're experiencing are not just related to sort of this shift in culture that we're seeing, but it's also related to the fact that we want to continue to do business as we've always done business. And so if I'm only thinking about my resources in the way that we've created a budget for this million dollars, here's how we've always spent it. This is how much gets allocated to the community. This is how much is overhead. It doesn't leave a lot of flexibility for us to rethink what we might do if we move some of those things around. And I think that is part of. It’s an opportunity, I guess I would say, for us to both be thoughtful about the communities. Again, that is our mission, right? To serve the communities, but also to think about how we're allocating those resources to serve our staff in the process.


Carol Hamilton
What are some ways that you've seen people start to rethink that versus always? Because I do feel like oftentimes the answer to what could be better is more staff, more volunteers. So instead if we flip it to thinking differently about what you do have.


Danielle Marshall
I'm thinking about it as growing impact does not mean always scaling. So what would it mean to deepen the work that we did within the organization? So instead of an example that came up not too long ago for me was a nonprofit who was basically saying they knew what the community needed and they were providing these resources only to really  over this COVID period realize, hey, there are probably some things we might be able to do differently. So taking the same exact budget that they had prior to the pandemic, it's like we're going to go back to the community, the stakeholders themselves, and ask them what that we are providing today is of value to you. Right. And what are the things that we may have been missing completely or what are the things that need to be tweaked. And so I still have the same amount of resources, but I am amplifying our ability to have this impact in this moment because I'm being more thoughtful and intentional about how we apply those resources. And so I think that's an example of where growth to me doesn't necessarily mean growing to reach more people, though there is the possibility that because they've made these shifts, they may actually impact more people's lives because they're providing the right tool. Right. So instead of saying we can't do this or it's not going to work for our organization, what are the possibilities that exist?


Carol Hamilton
I appreciate not only redefining success but also redefining growth. That growth could be not necessarily increasing numbers always, but going deeper and working differently. So there's an evolution in that growth versus just a linear metric, moving the needle upward, if you will.


Danielle Marshall
I just had a conversation with a colleague this morning and we were working on a presentation that we're doing together and she just said at one point, and I really appreciated this, she goes, I know we have limited time, but my preference is to go narrow and deeper as opposed to wider but shallow. And that just resonated so much with me because I think sometimes with what we consider limited resources or limited time, et cetera, we're like, well, how much can we squeeze in to maximize this? As opposed to pausing and saying with the resource, whether it's time, human, or financial, what do we want to do that's really going to deepen our impact at this moment?


Carol Hamilton
I think narrowing can be just the hardest thing for organizations to do. And not just organizations, I've found that in my own practice, like making choices about who I'm going to be working with and what  services am I going to work on. All of those things take time to  hone in on and figure out what is going to make more impact. But I do really appreciate the idea of being able to focus in and go deeper versus always trying to be all things to all people. I think organizations, my experience is that they struggle with that just out of a sense of wanting to be helpful. But then, as you're saying, if you take that minute to think because the resources are always limited, no matter how abundant your resources, they are limited. So with that, what do you want to do?


Danielle Marshall
What do we do? It's so interesting too, because so many nonprofits, and I've worked for many over the years. One of the first conversations that always comes up is we're talking about Mission Drift. How do we make sure we stay on target, we serve the clients we're expected to serve, that we're getting to the outcomes that we've outlined. And I think my experience has been where I've seen a lot more success is where people niche down and they say, even if it's three things, here are the three things we do. And if it is outside of those things that we do and we know that we do well, we'll recommend another partner. There's another agency that can support you. But when you know what it is you're supposed to be focusing on, that means all of your resources and time and energy really goes to deepening that.


Carol Hamilton
Impact, getting better at it, increasing your competency around that. And then I think there's a confidence in being focused and centered in on that and having the confidence that you can pass things along, that people will be taken care of. It's not your entire job to do it all and that you would be aware of what else is going on around you. So that part of that might be, okay, we're going to stop doing this thing that we've done every once in a while. When it's popped up in our request box, we're going to hand it over to this other group, but we have to spend some time actually building that relationship so that that handoff goes well versus it feeling just like, well, ping, ping, ping. You're off to refer to yet another organization.


Danielle Marshall
I also think that ties right back into where we started with Burnout, when we can niche down and be very clear about what we're doing, we're not spreading our staff thin. There's still going to be ample work to go around in the organization. But it feels very different to say I work on this one major project or initiative or these two things in the organization as opposed to where do you spend your time? I'm like, oh, I do 30 things right, and that's on a good day, that feels much more intentional. And if you think about your own life, and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when I am able to really focus on one thing and do it well, I'm not in the process of trying to multitask and move between these activities. I am focused. The quality of work that I'm able to produce is much higher than what happens when I'm like, oh, I have to take this call and I have to work on this report, and I have to do all of these things. And coming from the nonprofit sector, that feels like a big part of life. And so when you think about Burnout, well, of course people are burning out. They're exhausted, right? And then we're not caring for them when they go home to give them the space and the time they need to recharge themselves to come back to the office. And so it just feels like we could be certainly much more intentional than we have been to date.


Carol Hamilton
I feel like it's almost a badge of honor. Like, I wear so many different hats and I have to do so many different things. I've just  given up the notion of multitasking, but it's also taken me a long time and I'm probably still definitely a work in progress in terms of have I right sized my to do list for today of what's actually possible to get done?


Danielle Marshall
Oh my gosh, I feel that so much. I have started to practice at MITS. So they call it MITS because it's your most important task. And the idea behind MIT is that it is something that is really important. So if you set your goals, let's say for the month, for the week, whatever, you're picking the one task that if you advance that, it's going to make everything easier for you. Okay? And so it's really significant to your overall goals. But the goal then, furthermore, would be to get it done before 10:00 A.m.. And this has been a game changer for me because after 10:00 A.m., it's like all bets are off. Anything could happen. You have a client, you have a funder, you have someone who is stepping in. They're like, oh, I need you to fix this problem. And if you have not focused on the things strategically that were going to advance your goals or the organizational goals at that moment, it may get lost. Right? So now we're looking at 05:00 and you're like, oh, I ran out of time today. I had meetings, I had all these things come up. And we're constantly behind. So what does that lead people to do? They go home from work, maybe they have dinner if they're lucky with their families, kiss their kids goodnight, and it's like, boom, off to the races, I'm back on email. When does that give you time to actually settle, to have some joy in your life? And so when I think about this, I'm like that's partially true, at least in my world, what I am seeing from people is they're like, I just can't work around the clock anymore.


Carol Hamilton
I don't want to do this, don't want to. Of course, studies have also shown that when you're working like that, you're much less efficient. You're not bringing your best brain power. You're just too tired. You can't think well about any of those things. So with that MIT most important thing, what are some of the questions that you ask yourself to try to help you prioritize? What is going to be that most important thing for the day?


Danielle Marshall
I'm a big goal person, right? So I will set my goals for the year, and then I set quarterly goals. And then I'm thinking about monthly, but even as I'm doing that, what helps me get to my monthly sort of or I should say weekly. Right? We take the big picture and then we whittle it down. What is it based on my quarterly plan that feels important for this month? And maybe I'll just choose one big topic that I'm working on. So it might be my own professional development. It could be if we're talking about nonprofits, it could be a fundraising objective, whatever it happens to be, I'm thinking about that. What are all of the steps that I need to take in order to make this big goal that I have for the month come to life? Right. And so if I were to think about that now in terms of the weeks and the month, what could I break this down to? Say weekly is the theme, and then under that if I only have five days because we don't work on weekends, if I only have five days, what are the things, the five big things that I'm going to do before 10:00 A.m.? I don't know that I have a particular question, but it's just generally thinking what is going to help me get to this thing? And the example I might use with some of my clients is if you, for instance, let's say you want to buy a house, right? And so everyone's thinking about this house, and the big thing that comes to mind for people is like, oh, I got to save all this money. Okay, great. You do need a down payment for a house, but there are so many other steps that one might take before you even get to the purchase of it. Do you know? Have you researched what neighborhood you want to live in? If you have kids? Do you think about the school systems? What is your savings plan? Have you run a credit report? Right. Like, there are all of these steps, and they don't need to be done on the same day. So to break them out over time allows you to scale. And even if you spent an hour a day on this one task, at the end of the week, you've done 5 hours, at the end of the month, you've done 20 hours. You are far more like, ahead of schedule in terms of working through your objectives than you were when you were just leaving it to the end of the day, hoping there would be time for you to get to it.


Carol Hamilton
Having that bigger thing in mind and then breaking it down into the smallest steps. I'm starting a new project, and my favorite way of doing this at first is to do a mind map so the circle in the middle and then all the whatever comes to mind. Because I feel like if I write a list, it should be organized this way. I have no obligation to be organized in any way. One thing can spark another. And then I take that mess and I put it in. Okay, well, what would be some of the first steps to get me going? And I love that idea of taking an hour during the day before you know things are going to start pulling you away from your plan for the day and get that thing done.


Danielle Marshall
And for people who are visual, because I use a mind map tool, it's like a favorite tool. Now. You could actually post it near your desk. Right? So I go a step further with my mind map and I actually apply numbers to it. So what's the first thing I think I should do? What's the second thing? And even within the spokes that come off of a mind map, there still may be multiple steps. Right. But if I'm thinking about it in terms of a process, what feels like I must do it first in order to enable me to do these next couple of things. And so it can be visual, it can be a list. But the thing is, do you have a system to be intentional?


Carol Hamilton
One of the things that I started doing in graduate school and then after graduate school, I was very reluctant in graduate school where they're always like, okay, so we did the thing, you've written the paper, now write the reflection. I was like, oh my God, do I have to do that? But I built myself a tool so that I could integrate this and now I do it on a weekly basis. And so I have that. I have a chance every week to  look at all those questions. Then I've got data over time, right, to be able to look at the big picture, what's going on. But it also the other way is important too, to go from the big, but really breaking it down into the small pieces and figuring out what is going to get you just one step further.


Danielle Marshall
I wonder to some extent how what we're talking about now also relates back to burnout. Because one of the things that I've had to be intentional in my own world doing is I carve out the time to plan, right? So I have my quarterly retreats with myself. I'm taking some time to think about what I want my week to look like, my month, et cetera. But when I think about most people at work, they come in on Monday morning and it's like hitting the ground running. These ten problems came up over the weekend. We need you to address them. Where is the intentional carved out space for quiet thinking and reflection? So if you want me to be strategic in my approach, I need some time to think about strategy.


Carol Hamilton
Certainly. It's been a lot easier in the same way for me, once I'm a little bit more not completely in control of my schedule, but a little bit more to be able to set some boundaries, take that Friday afternoon to do those kinds of things. But even inside organizations, I think I was always the person who was like, there are emergencies and then there are the emergencies that we create for ourselves, and we can build systems to deal with the second type so that we don't have to do this over and over again. Early in my career, I worked for a company that put a magazine out every two weeks and we acted like it was an emergency every two weeks. I was like, we do this every two weeks. We can figure out how to do it without it being a crisis. So trying to differentiate between those two and I think sometimes there's almost like a valorization of that chaoticness that we must be more important if we're this busy and we're spinning like this. It's like, no, it's just disorganized.


Danielle Marshall
That's a mindset shift again around what it means to be successful.


Carol Hamilton
Right.


Danielle Marshall
I am not measuring my success on the amount of angst. I feel like that is not the measure that I want to bring forth. And I think it takes time. But I think the leadership team, additionally, really needs to be involved in this. I have one client right now, and they do something that when I first met them, I was like, wow, it's so simple in nature. And yet I was like, I don't hear of many groups doing this. On Fridays, they meet as a team. The entire team comes to these meetings and they just talk. They talk about an article, a podcast, a thought that they've been having, a client issue that they've been dealing with. And there's no agenda. It's just anybody bringing whatever they want to the table and they have a discussion. But what I experienced, because I sat in on a number of those calls, is the level of thoughtfulness and opportunity to play with what we considered sort of half baked ideas. Like, you don't have to have a fully fleshed out thought around this. It's just I was wondering, or I was thinking here's my initial thought. What do you think about this? Right. So in that space, and it was only an hour, it was working time with the group to challenge assumptions, to think differently, to bring new perspectives in. And they were able to then take those learnings and apply them to their everyday jobs. And I'm like, it was an hour and how innovative but transformative it was for the organization.


Carol Hamilton
It was an hour. But it was a weekly practice too.


Danielle Marshall
Yes, exactly.


Carol Hamilton
An investment. And probably, I would guess, that there was a real commitment for everyone to show up to it too, for it.


Danielle Marshall
To work, that they want. . The word practice, I think is important because, again, very similar to the MITS, right? Like, if I do this four times a month, that's 4 hours off. Dedicated staff time that we have to really think beyond our current vision, if you will. Right. What could be? What are the possibilities, what are we missing? And I think what I also appreciated about that is there was no question that wasn't appropriate to ask in that space. We could go where our minds and our imaginations took us. So it could be thinking about a particular project or just maybe a worldwide issue here, something that we are dealing with, but it's having ramifications in our field and our work day to day. How do we tackle this, what is our position on this? And so when we're asking those big questions and bringing curiosity to the forefront, I think it sparks more curiosity in our everyday work. It was safe to do that and so therefore, I'm going to continue that practice.


Carol Hamilton
Right. It's modeling, being able to talk in a first draft and ask those different questions and not just wait until they're doing strategic planning to think about the bigger issues that are going on around them. Once every three to five years we're going to do an environmental scan. No, it's every week we're bringing something in to ponder.


Danielle Marshall
What really I think excited me about that opportunity is everyone on the team participated in it, including the CEO. And that's a big deal to have literally your leadership also commit to say, you know what, I'm not too busy that I can't be in a thinking.


Carol Hamilton
Space with you all well, and to model thinking out loud.


Danielle Marshall
You got it, right? That's it.


Carol Hamilton
I mean, there are some organizations that are literally dealing with emergencies and I think there's a mindset that many more organizations believe they are than they are and so  differentiating the two. And I'm trying to think of what would be some other ways that organizations could carve out some more time. I think another one comes to mind is having a certain day where you don't have meetings and it's okay to say no to client meetings or whatever it might be, just having some space so that people have time to do some deeper work.


Danielle Marshall
I do that for myself. And I will say this, I am not always successful, but Wednesdays have been labeled my thinking day and it's on my calendar as thinking day. And so when I introduce this to people they're like, well, what do you think about for 8 hours? The thing is, I can think about whatever I want. If there is something that is happening in my industry, I can think about that. I might use the time to write because writing is also reflective of me. There's a lot that can be occurring or I might actually reach out to a colleague during my thinking day because I'm just the same as we're doing right now. As we're learning out loud and we're having this conversation, I'm like, oh, what nuggets can I pull from this that I might be able to apply. And so I don't know that we always need to think about this in terms of huge resources or all hands. Some of these things might be a team is focusing on it and some of it might just be allowing people to have space as an individual to reflect.


Carol Hamilton
Another thing that you had brought up around the flip side of Burnout or maybe it's one way we've been talking about it is building in some practices, having some shared agreement that Friday is going to be no. Meetings. Or Wednesday is going to be no meetings and people have time to think. Or we're going to spend an hour as a team talking about something beyond the to-do list, but also bringing Joy back into the work. For me, it's always reconnecting to why do I do this? Help me. But there are lots of other ways.


Danielle Marshall
I think it's joy in the work, but I think when we initially even started talking about joy, I wasn't even thinking about it connected to the workplace. And I think part of this is in the redefining of success and reevaluating who we want to be. It's also a reevaluation of how I want to spend my time right. Both inside of work and outside. So during the pandemic, a lot of people found new hobbies. Like, I remember how the news every day talked about you couldn't find baking supplies anywhere. Needs to be found. And we sort of laughed at it. But there was a reason, like people found something that they could literally make with their hands. I am finding pleasure in cooking for my family or knitting or running whatever it was that brought them joy. And I think when you are doing more of those things for yourself outside of a workspace, when you return to work, you are refreshed. You are sort of renewed at this moment. But the other thing is, and I don't know if you've had this experience, I'm a big crafter, so I knit a lot. I like fiber art. When I spend time doing that, my mind actually has a chance to just  go, right. And I'm not thinking about anything other than what I'm doing at that moment. And it allows me to come back with clarity. Right. Because I wasn't sitting in this place, I have to fix this problem, I have to solve this for someone else. I literally just had time for me to sit with my own thoughts. And so there's a beauty in that because now when it is time to go back, wow, you're going to get a very different version of Danielle than you would have gotten if I had been on call 24/7 for the entire week.


Carol Hamilton
Definitely. For me, a lot of it is getting up and taking a walk or swimming laps where I just remember my mother in law once she couldn't imagine swimming laps. It seemed incredibly boring to her. So she was like, what do you think about it? And I was like, the whole point is I don't think about anything.


Danielle Marshall
That's exactly it, nothing.


Carol Hamilton
But in that reexamination, one of the things that I started doing, and again, just for the pleasure of it, is learning how to draw, and it's not for any purpose. I don't want to call myself an artist. I'm not trying to display things or have anything come out of it. It's just for the fun of it. And I get into a state of flow, and I'm really focused. And the whole notion that people can have hobbies, I think, is  having a comeback.


Danielle Marshall
Years ago, I worked at a nonprofit, Kaboom, and one of the things that they had was boomerisms. And they said, we don't want to do routine things routinely. And I had a deep appreciation for that then, but it really feels true for me now. So even if we are to take this concept of joy and bring it back into the workspace, what are the things that we're doing that we're so in a routine with? It's just like, oh, I have to fill out my travel paperwork or I have to submit this reimbursement, and it feels like it's drudgery, or I have to go to this team meeting. Are there ways that we can begin to do things in non routine? Ways that allow for joy, that allow for some playfulness? Because that feels like that's missing when everything's mission critical constantly, that's hard. There are certainly organizations that are in the business of saving lives. Many of us are not. It doesn't mean our mission is not important.


Carol Hamilton
Right.


Danielle Marshall
But if we took a day off or we were somewhat playful in this process, it wouldn't do any damage. If anything, it helps us. It brings us alive. And I think about, what are the things that we call emergencies that we react to almost immediately that did not have to be emergencies if we had taken time, one, to plan for them, and two, to do things in a non routine way because we're shaking it up.


Carol Hamilton
I think reevaluating what actually is an emergency is a big one, unfortunately. I feel like in our culture, there's a status in being able to create emergencies that is really unhelpful.


Danielle Marshall
I want no part of that. I don't know. Just call me boring. I like, is where I want to be. Absolutely. Again, go ahead.


Carol Hamilton
I was just going to say I love a good routine. I was in a workshop where they said, who are you the patron saint of? And I was like, I think I'm the patron saint of routine. So I'll have to think about, though, how I can be more playful with my routines.


Danielle Marshall
My favorite thing to tell people when they call me, and they're like, what have you been up to, and I'm like, nothing. It's amazing. And you know that's not true. We all have things that are on our agenda, but honestly, a life that is drama free, where it's consistent in a lot of ways, that feels good. And I'm not saying that to shy away from risk or experimentation with things, but I want to be mindful in how we approach that so that the intentionality is there. We're going to try some new things out because it helps defer on creativity and innovation, but sometimes that routine means that slow and steady actually allows you to do more.


Carol Hamilton
So as we wrap up from this conversation, what invitation would you give to nonprofit leaders? I don't know. As they think about their next quarter, let's say.


Danielle Marshall
I think the first thing that I would be asking right now is, where are there opportunities for you to embed reflection time in both as a team and as individuals? And for those who push back immediately and say there isn't that, why is that? There's 24 hours in every day, and it's all about, for me, how we choose to use the time that we have allotted. So if we're at work for 8 hours out of the day, is it not a valuable use of your time to see where planning, even for an hour or two, just to get started, might yield greater benefits for you?


Carol Hamilton
And what are the assumptions that are embedded in we can't .


Danielle Marshall
That's a limiting belief.


Carol Hamilton
And for me, I think it would be, how can you bring a little more playfulness into what you're doing inside and outside of work?


Danielle Marshall
I'm going to go a little bit deeper on that one, too, because I like that. But what does joy mean for your staff? What does it mean for you? Right. So instead of mandating that we all go bowling this Thursday oh, God, no. Because we do that right. As nonprofit leaders. But instead of mandating fun, the beatings will continue until morale improves. What does it mean for the team to actually say, this is a valuable use of my time. I not only enjoyed it, but I got to know my colleagues better? It felt good to be in that space.


Carol Hamilton
Because there's a lot of Band Aid approaches to that that don't actually achieve the goal at all.


Danielle Marshall
Absolutely.


Carol Hamilton
All right. Appreciate it. All right. Well, thank you, Danielle.


Danielle Marshall
This was so much fun. Talk about joy. It's a joy to talk to you. Absolutely.

In episode 76 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Devon Lawrence discuss

• How systems can benefit your fundraising work
• What you can do to make your donors feel appreciated
• The importance of small gestures in your fundraising strategy

 
Guest Bio:
Devon Lawrence is the Founder and Principal of Clark Lawrence Consulting, Inc. For 10+ years she has worked with non-profits of all sizes, both domestic and international, to advance their capabilities around development operations, fundraising events, project management and leadership. Her clients have praised her ability to be well attuned to the needs, opportunities, and challenges of non-profit organizations and her reliability as a source of guidance on fundraising and organizational development. Devon currently serves on the boards of the Bowery Residents' Committee (BRC) and Association of Nonprofit Specialists. She lives in New York City with her husband and two-year old son.

Important Links and Resources:

• https://www.clarklawrenceconsulting.com/ 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/devon-lawrence-417750a/ 

Transcript:
Carol Hamilton: My guest today on Mission Impact is Devon Lawrence. Personally I love to step back and see the big picture, look at the wider trends that are happening in the world and help groups think about what the implications of those trends are for their future. To help them envision their future and then come to agreement about what are the big 3-5 things that are really going to help them move the needle on their mission over the next 3-5 years. I love helping them map out the elements of their organization and programs and get clear on why they do what they do and how they can demonstrate their impact.
AND just thinking of the big picture isn’t enough. Without a clear plan for implementation and action all the strategy in the world won’t actually get moved forward. So rather than thinking of strategy as a once in a three year event that includes planning sessions and retreats, thinking of it as practice is really the key. How are we integrating what we decided in our planning sessions into our more day to day work. That is what I talk with Devon about. She focuses on fundraising – and a lot of fundraising consultants also focus on the bigger picture – the fundraising strategy – but Devon does something different – she helps organizations create systems and implement systems that really make their fundraising work.
Mission Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I am Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit strategic planning consultant. 
Devon and I talk about what metrics and other aspects are important to track and monitor for successful fundraising, why that thank you note you been procrastinating about writing is REALLY important, and some of the differences across cultures in attitudes about nonprofits and philanthropy.
Welcome, Devin. Welcome to Mission Impact. 
Devon: Thank you. It's great to be here. 
Carol: So I always like to start out by asking the question around what drew you to the work that you do? What would you say motivates you, or what would you describe as your why? 
Devon: Well my career started in non-profits. So my background was already there and then it was.
When I was introduced to consulting and being able to, to support nonprofits in a different way, that was what was exciting, being able to help more organizations and people out there than I was already through just, working in a full-time role. So it was the ability to, to share my skills and expertise with as many organizations as possible.
Carol: And you really focus on development and fundraising operations and project management. When you're working with clients, can you just say a little bit more about what that looks like?
Devon: Sure. So development operations, I like to say, is really the behind the scenes work. It's the systems, the processes, the structure that needs to be in place in order for an organization to be successful.
So, whether that's, working with. Development directors or executive directors on just, prospecting strategies as well as thinking about, tracking the, the data behind solicitations, cultivation, stewardship, coming up with the right processes for, acknowledgement letters, matching gifts, et cetera.
It's all of those pieces that are part of the puzzle to learn, I mean, to do. Go towards sustainability for an organization. 
Carol: And it's funny cuz I, I feel like in a lot of cases consultants err on the side of being the bigger picture strategy piece. And, and that's where I am and .That's all great and you need that, but then, How do you actually make it work?. What are all the 99 steps that you have to think about and keep, keeping track of and making sure that you're maintaining all the things?. What are some of the things that we, you would say are common stumbling blocks for organizations as they're trying to set up those systems?
. 
Devon: That's a great question and a lot of people just don't have it. The bandwidth or capacity. A lot of organizations, you're so focused on the fundraising itself and bringing in the money and reaching your goals, that it's, remembering to track and monitor all of your communication so that you can go back and say to this donor, yes, they made a gift of X amount.
On, a year ago, and we need to get back to them. But what were all those touchpoints in between so that we know, like what is their interest? What is it about our organization that gets them excited? What was the last meeting that they had? What board members do they know? It's all of those pieces that people forget about, but it's really important to come up with the right strategy and continue to engage with donors.
Carol: What are some of those things that you think are really important for organizations to track along the way?. 
Devon: Communications. Absolutely. So when you think about a lot of people, a lot of organizations think of communications as not being a part of development. They might even be different departments.
But they really do go hand in hand because, every time that a prospect or donor is reading about. Or seeing something about the organization, that's something that works towards the cycle of engagement. And so communication is definitely one, like understanding what the different touchpoints are that they receive throughout the year.
And in many cases it is also tiered communication. So, donors at certain levels might be only getting newsletters or, just. A quarterly email, whereas donors at a higher level might be, might be receiving invitations to an intimate event or getting a preview of some project or program that's happening that maybe the larger audience might not be.
So keeping track of communications absolutely. Number one is, Following up as quickly as possible when someone makes a gift. So thanking them for their gifts, acknowledgement letters is a huge one. I've worked with clients that, and this happens to everyone at many organizations, is that you, it, it falls to the back burner and donors notice those things.
So, even if it takes 48 hours or two weeks. That's acceptable. But when it takes, six months, nine months, sometimes even a year, donors really do notice. And that can affect the relationship you have with them. So I would say those are some top, must, must haves, make sure that all organizations are tracking.
Carol: Yeah, and it's, it's interesting. I'm, I'm. I work with a group where we've been working together for a couple years, and this isn't a nonprofit, that's not the point of it, but there's some similar things that if we had set up some of those systems at the beginning to be capturing all this information and tracking.
We wouldn't be doing the cleanup that we're gonna. In the middle of trying to do it now. Like, oh yeah, wow. Let's have one spreadsheet where we keep everybody's email and who the primary contact was and are we getting their home address so that we can send them a thank you card. Absolutely.
All those kinds of things that it's easy to think about. After the fact. And then, to think about, well, where would it be easiest for us to ask for this information in the process when, like at a, at an initial gift asking for example, for that address or whatnot. Yes. So that you're not asking for it.
Like, oh, I wanna send you a thank you letter now, could you please send me your 
Devon: address? Yes, yes. Definitely, and that's a good point because, I was thinking even bigger picture, but those are the small things that make a huge difference is the address, emails, phone numbers, being able to stay on top of where people are, even annually following up sometimes to just confirm with donors what their, what their contact information is, if anything has changed.
Those are all very important things to consider. 
Carol: And it's interesting thinking about like, you're talking about those different tiers and. My husband and I donate to a variety of different organizations. One here locally and we recently got invited to an event.
Now we don't donate a huge amount of money, but we've been consistent. We've donated, yes, probably now for the last. Seven years or something, I bought some of their merchandise. I don't know whether we've gone to any events. I'm trying to even think maybe once. So I was a little bit surprised that we got invited to this event, but it made a big impression.
My husband ended up going. It was really experiential, very close to, really being able to get closer to their mission. So it is interesting to think about kind of, there could be lots of differences. Criteria that would push people into that next tier. What are some of the things Absolutely that organizations might be thinking about?
The obvious one is the amount of money. But are there other things that they should be thinking about, to be able to notice who their, their. I don't know, next level 
Devon: givers are. Yeah. And it sounds like the organization you give to has they, they have everything in order that they're able to, to reach out to you.
And with that invitation, because that's actually a really good example is that even if your giving has been the same over a long period of time those, the donors that have been giving for. For long periods, they're as important as someone that comes in at a very high level for the first time and is giving to you.
Sometimes they're even more important because, I know a story from another colleague where she had a client that they had a campaign and the donor had been giving at a. Let's just, for the purpose of this podcast, just say $10,000 for a long period. And at the campaign, the person might have capacity to give more, but the organization was nervous to ask for anything, six figures or higher.
But the consultant said, well, why don't we just ask? And no one has ever asked before, she's, this donor's been giving for. many, many years and they asked for a million and she said, well, no one's ever asked me. And yes, I will. So, wow. It is, IM, it is very important to not forget about those who have been giving to you for a long time because, that just shows that they clearly have a passion and care about the work that you're doing.
And really, if you don't ask for more, you're never gonna know if they'll be willing to, to, to give it a higher level. 
Carol: Right. What are some other things that get in the way of organizations really managing their, the, those backend systems?. 
Devon: Hmm. The event is a big one. Getting sucked into like those big moments in the year.
Everyone has a gala. A lot of organizations rely on their gala as their main income for revenue and that can blind people from remembering that there's more to fundraising than just the gala and events and that. It's a lot of what happens outside of those, those big moments that are important.
And when you just focus on events which is, it can be great for some organizations to bring in a lot of their revenue for the year. But there's so much more potential if you utilize that, those opportunities outside of those moments. And engaging with donors and keeping track of all the information and the behind the scenes and the proc, like following the proper processes and systems really does make a difference to help you reach those goals.
Carol: And you mentioned events, galas and a lot of organizations have traditionally relied on those. What are you seeing with the impact of, covid having to go virtual? Are those events coming back?. Are organizations decided to pivot away from those?
Devon:. I've definitely seen them come back at least, here in New York and. I have actually had clients in other areas as well. But yes, in person is coming back, but virtual is still there. So it's maybe no longer that the main gala, the main fundraising event for the year, is virtual, but their other virtual opportunities and events throughout the year, because it's a great way to, to expand your, your network and your reach by having the virtual events.
But with galas, I'm definitely seeing in person and people are excited to, to be back in person again and to really like, feel the, Importance of the organization that they're supporting by being in that room with other people and seeing, being able to watch the, the videos and hear from people on stage.
Carol: So you've also worked with organizations internationally. Can you tell me a little bit about that experience? Yes. 
Devon: So I worked with a couple of organizations in Singapore. And it was a time when I, we had moved there for my husband's work and I had recently started consulting and I wasn't sure really what was gonna happen.
I still had some clients back here in the US but luckily just through connections, I was introduced to a few organizations that needed support. And it was very interesting because, The support that they needed was different from what I'm used to here in the us. The first thing that stood out was, nonprofits in the US and charities are thought of as two different things.
And usually, nonprofits are used in the broader, broader sense. And it was the opposite in Singapore. So they first think of organizations as charities, which not necessarily lessens them, but there's less of a responsibility that the community has towards supporting those organizations.
Most of the philanthropy was. Through church or so, religion or through medicine. So healthcare. And then outside of that, because Singapore as a country provides a lot of support to the nonprofits, the community really felt like it was the government's responsibility to provide them with support.
So when it came to fundraising for these organizations, they found it really hard. To get through to people to even understand why they should be giving. So that was very interesting to encounter. That was different from what I was used to. 
Carol: Yeah. I mean, here in the States it's probably flipped, right?
Where 
Devon: Yes. We're 
Carol: we're overly reliant on the nonprofit sector to Yes. Deliver services, government overly reliant. That's my own editorial, Editorializing, right?. And even, a lot of organizations get supported by the government, but not to the same degree that that .
There might be expectations in other countries. What other differences did you notice?. 
Devon: Being that it was specifically Singapore was heavily expat. It was more so that the expats, the expat community were the ones that were supporting the nonprofits. Because again, just community-wise and culture that, specifically in Singapore, that. They didn't come from the background where, giving to nonprofits was was, was, was almost an expectation.
So I think that the expat community and the level of volunteerism that came from that as well, because many. In xFi communities it's usually because one of the spouses is going for work and then the other spouse, either, if they're lucky, then they are able to work. But sometimes getting those work visas is not as easy for the spouses.
So they put so much of their time and energy into the nonprofits there that was, I wanna say, Not so much more, but I was very impressed and blown away by the level of time and commitment that they all give to the organizations. I mean, the couple that I worked with, the couple organizations that I worked with were fully run and managed by volunteers.
Which we don't see as much over in the us. We have full-time staff, part-time staff at the minimum who are working for nonprofits, but it was almost fully run by, by the, the expats. 
Carol: Yeah, so it might also almost be like, we turned the clock back 60 years and, and who was running nonprofits at that time here in the United States might have been more similar.
. And, and you also described them. Are described or seen as charities versus nonprofits, And, sometimes I think here in the US folks may think of that word charity in almost any, some kind of, has some negative overtones. What, what, what did you see?, what, how, how did people experience that in that context and in that culture?
Devon:. I wouldn't say there were negative undertones there, there was still a need for them. There's always a need for them. But people did, they, they would respect charities versus nonprofits and, and, they, they would give, but just the word nonprofit almost wasn't in the vocabulary.
It was very much a charity. And so just like you were saying, being from the US we, if you call a non-profit charity, they might be offended where, so that's what I was used to and I had to, teach myself to switch, to switch that vocabulary. But it was just more than SEMA semantics and being.
The language that they use around the organizations, but they were still respected. It was just that culturally, the, because the government provides so much support, it was less of an expectation of the community having to support them as well. 
Carol: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's always interesting to explore those, those cultural differences and .
, just how words are used and. And attitudes and perspectives, all of that. I always, I always find that super fascinating. So we had talked before about some of the challenges that organizations have when they're trying to implement or maybe, build out processes.
Maybe improve their processes? What are some things that you see helping them really succeed in that, and make things work well?. 
Devon: I am a big believer in CRMs and 
Carol: say what a CRM is just quickly. 
Devon: It is a, you can either, some say constituents, some say client, but it's a relationship management platform.
So there's. A ton of different ones out there. Razor's Edge, Salesforce, Bloomerang, Asana. There's so many now, but just a big, big believer in the importance of having a database, a system that is capturing and tracking all of your information in one central place. And being able to then, as I was talking about Using that information to help you with your donor engagement and cultivation, solicitation, all of your activities, to then be able to have a dashboard that shows you, how far you are towards your goals and how many, and that could be both, in revenue goals, but also in setting goals for, you want to, you wanna reach out to 10 people this week, you wanna make sure that you have communicated with a certain number of donors.
, helping you to set those goals so you can stay on track for your week, for your month, whatever it is reminding you when you send an email to someone or an invitation you haven't heard back that is a huge that is a huge benefit to like, to lead to, to success for staying organized and just staying on top of everything.
Carol: Now you used the phrase the CRM captures, but actually the, I think one of the biggest challenges that I've noticed with organizations really fully getting all the benefit of a system like that is. When the people don't do, don't take the time to make sure that everything's linked up and that email gets captured or .
Going back in and saying, okay, here are a couple notes from this phone conversation I just had. Yes. That habit forming can be really challenging. 
Devon:. And it's also important to find the best CRM for your organization because they are not all equal in any way. for some, Salesforce might be best for some, something through Microsoft because that's already what you're using could be best.
But it's definitely finding what works for you. And also, some are better for events. Some are better for emailing, so it definitely is important to take the time and come up with the best, the best platform for the organization. 
Carol: What are some of the things that organizations need to be looking at so that they can know, okay, this one is gonna be a good fit for us.
Devon:. I'm actually doing this right now with other clients, so I can think about just the process we're taking. So first it's Understanding what your vision is. So if you were to have a crm, how would that change the work of your organization? And it could be that it's only for fundraising purposes.
It could be that you also need to track your program information events, like I mentioned. It, whatever else there is. First thinking, big picture, like what is it that. You would need it for, for the organization, all the different ways that it would function. And then it's looking at the data you have and understanding what, like, from there, what your needs are.
It could be that you just wanna track contact information and email addresses the most important and of course, giving information. For others it might be that you need a platform that is connected or has connectability to A search engine. So to be able to search for different capacity levels and give you that research for the different donors to be able to have it within your system.
And then from there it's who is going to be managing it? Is every staff member going to have a hand in it? Is it one individual? Cuz all those things together just. Really make a difference in understanding what the best needs are for the best c r m for you.
Carol: So as we come to the end here at the end of each episode, I ask each guest what permission slip they would give to nonprofit leaders or what they would invite them to consider as they work to not be a martyr to the cause and they work to cultivate a, a healthier and more productive organizational culture.
What, what would your invitation or permission slip be for nonprofit leaders? 
Devon: First of all, I love that question. And my answer would be to give your, to give yourself permission to take a break. That it's really important, everyone, especially leaders of org, of nonprofits and organizations, can get so caught up in everything, from your goal for fundraising events, communicating with donors.
But sometimes it's important to just take a break, take a step back and breathe and just take a look at everything around you within your organization and just remind yourself both of the great work you're doing and what you're, your mission and what, who you're working for and the people you're serving.
But also remind yourself of what your priorities are for that moment. Like, remind yourself of, whether it's monthly or quarterly, but just. What those priorities are, are you, are the projects that you're working on, line up with those priorities, but the only way to focus on that is to take a break.
Carol: I feel like so many consultants that I talk to want to give that, to organ to, To leaders. Let's, let's take everybody, take, give them that permission to, to take a break and take a step back and. Think about those priorities. So how can people find you? How can they be in touch? 
Devon: I.
My website is definitely www.clarklawrenceconsulting.com. And you can find more information about me, about what I do. There is a form to, to reach out to me on, on my website. So yes, all are welcome to check it out. 
Carol: And we'll definitely have that link in the, in the show notes. So thank you.
Can find Devin there. Alright, well thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the podcast. 
Devon: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Carol: Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Devon, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. 
I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as Cindy Rivera Grazer of 100 Ninjas for her production support. 
Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategic planning, mapping, & audits for nonprofits and associations. We combine left-brain strategy and analysis + right-brain wisdom about human complexities for a proven, whole-brain, whole-organization process through which every stakeholder thrives. Reach out to us for support and facilitation of strategic planning, mapping your impact, auditing your services and getting an organizational assessment. We especially love working with staffed nonprofits and associations with human centered missions.
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In episode 76 of Mission: Impact, Carol Hamilton and Erin Allgood discuss

• What a theory of change is and the differences between theories of change and logic models
• How a theory of change can help you make decisions between the many options and directions you might go – and your many good ideas!
• How it’s not all on your shoulders to fix – even if it can feel that way sometimes.

 
Guest Bio:
Erin Allgood helps organizations and individuals who give a damn create real impact. As the founder of Allgood Strategies, Erin helps socially-conscious organizations with strategic planning, organizational development, and leadership coaching. Her services focus on catalyzing social change at the systems, organizational, and individual levels.
Important Links and Resources:

• Listen to Erin’s Podcast!
• https://www.allgoodstrategies.com/ 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinallgood/ 
• https://www.instagram.com/allgoodstrategies/?hl=en 

Transcript:
Erin Allgood: It, I think, can be really liberating for organizations to see that it's not incumbent upon them to fix everything.  that they actually have partners who are gonna be doing similar work and in this, and in that are on a similar journey, but aren't necessarily that their work is complementary to, to theirs.
Carol Hamilton: What is a theory of change and why should you have one? Beyond the answer of well --- our funders require us to include it in our grant proposal, there are a lot of advantages to mapping out what your theory of change is for your organization. It can seem a little esoteric and a little wonky and a little academic. And what even is a theory of change? Simply put – it is a graphic or written description of how your organization’s work moves your mission and vision forward – it helps you map these pieces and show the logic of why you are doing what you are doing. With this, you can also build evaluation systems that demonstrate your impact. Like any other strategy process – the conversations you will have to get the theory of change on paper or on a virtual white board – help create a common understanding of what you are really trying to do. And the process can reveal some gaps in your program design and process. Through the process you might be aiming to do XYZ with your vision – this is the change you are trying to create in the world. And then this is what we are doing in terms of programs and services – and by talking it through as a group, you realize that your expected short term, medium term and long outcomes from your program don’t actually move you closer to your vision. Or what has to be true for those outcomes to happen – the assumptions built into your design are not realistic – there is too much of a leap in logic from one to another – and you need to build in some more steps to move people along the expected journey or pathway. And the map is not the territory! Theories of change or logic models or impact maps simplify what is rarely simple.. They are never meant to capture all the possible permutations. Each person participating in your offerings will have their own unique experience. And they live complex lives with multiple things impacting them, their behavior and decisions. The process generates insights into which program elements and intended outcomes to focus on, and can help you demonstrate how changes are unfolding for participants—beyond just reporting how many people participated.
Mission Impact is the podcast for progressive nonprofit leaders who want to build a better world without becoming a martyr to the cause. I’m Carol Hamilton, your podcast host and nonprofit holistic strategy consultant. Mission: Impact is brought to you by Grace Social Sector Consulting. Grace Social Sector brings you whole-brain strategic planning, mapping, & audits for nonprofits and associations. On this podcast we explore how to make your organization more effective and innovative. We dig into how to build organizational cultures where your work in the world is aligned with how you work together as staff, board members and volunteers. All for this is for the purpose of creating greater mission impact. 
My guest today on Mission Impact is Erin Allgood. Erin and I talk about what a theory of change is and the differences between theories of change and logic models, how a theory of change can help you make decisions between the many options and directions you might go – and your many good ideas, why each organization does not have to tackle everything – deciding what is the part of the problem that you will work on and what are you really suited to focus on – and who else is working in your space whose work complements yours is so important, and how it’s not all on your shoulders to fix – even if it can feel that way sometimes.
Welcome, Erin. Welcome to Mission Impact. 
Erin: Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 
Carol: So I like to start out each episode with just a question around what drew you to the work that you do. What would you describe as your motivation or your why? 
Erin: I love this question and I of course like to listen to a couple of previous episodes, so I knew it was coming.
I have always been somebody who has cared deeply about. Writing the injustices in the world in a lot of ways. My mom will tell you that I came out of the womb of feminist and I just have carried that energy with me ever since. And I had a very circuitous path to becoming a non-profit consultant.
Mainly because I went to school for biochemistry. And hopefully this will be interesting for people to hear this, but I, and then I went and actually got a degree, a master's degree in nutritional biochemistry and was just like, this is not what I wanna do with my life. I was so interested. I realized what I was actually interested in was understanding systems.
I was not actually interested in either doing bench science or doing anything like that. And so I started on a journey after all of that too. One to like to figure out where I wanted to actually like, be like in the world. And I started taking some courses on food systems and I took some courses on sustainable business and so on and so forth.
And that was all while I was working for a pharmaceutical company. This was back in time like the 2009, 2010 timeframe because we were in a recession and there was no other work for me, and I had all these science degrees and I could go and do that. But what it really helped me to do is sharpen that focus on things like, I could not just have a job doing something I didn't care about.
So I really needed to create what I. Wanted for myself. And that's, that was really the beginning of my consulting practice. I started in food systems and then about five years ago I broadened out to really have a much broader focus on organizations that were doing, like usually have some aspect of social justice in their work.
And started doing things like strategic planning, organizational development and executive coaching . There's always little things here that come, come up here and there too, that I do a little bit of a long-winded answer. 
Carol: Well, it's often a winding, a winding journey to get to where you are, and especially at that beginning stage of your career where you're figuring out where do I fit?
What am I really interested in? realizing, well, it's actually the systems that I'm interested in and how can I bring that systems perspective. I think that I had a similar point with my first job out of college. Working for people has heard this story before, but working for a magazine that got help helped people get on talk shows and, and coming to the point of realizing I don't wanna be promoting all comers.
Hmm. I wanna be aligned with the missions that I'm helping support and helping move forward. So definitely can, can relate to that. And As you said, you and I do similar work focusing on strategic planning and organization development. And. I'm, one of the things that we, we also do, both of us is help organizations map out their impact, or sometimes it's called creating a theory of change.
Sometimes it's called creating a logic model. There are a variety of different terms for that. And I'm wondering if you could just describe for our listeners what a theory of change is and, Why is it important for an organization to have one? 
Erin: Yeah. I love developing theories of change, talking about theories of change.
So I'm so excited that this is the topic we're diving into today. I think of a theory of change as being the overarching way in which an organization creates change, or it could be an individual too. I've actually created a theory of change for myself as part of my business and we're. What I think about.
When I think about a theory of change, it's really starting to identify what that real big vision is for an organization and it's broader than just obviously like their specific work in the world. I like to go really, really big picture with that. And then understand as part of that, like developing the theory of change process, where the organization fits in that broader landscape of change that they, of, of whatever that is that they're trying to bring forth.
And so I think a lot of times when people develop a theory of change, it's just, it's, it's much more narrowly focused. And so I have a bit of a different take on that. And then you had mentioned logic models too. And anybody that knows me, knows me that I. Deeply, deeply hate logic models. I don't know how you feel about 
Carol: So what do you see as the difference between a theory of change versus a logic model?
Erin: I think that, like a logic model gets really down into the weeds and it's, and it, presents things in a super linear way. And it, or it, presents how you create change in a linear way.
Whereas I think of a theory of change as being It's, it's not, it's never quite that linear, right? Like we know that, like we know that change doesn't happen in a super linear fashion. We know that it's iterative. We know that like things cer, like certain things build upon one another. We know that like there's oftentimes this like squiggle, of a journey to get from point A to point B with a lot of different detours off of it as well.
And so the way that I look at e Theory of change is like, it's a broader framework in which an organization is. Is what, that's helping to guide an organization versus the rigidity of a logic model where it's like, oh, here's like, here's our goal, here's our, the tactic that we're gonna take, and then here's the outcome we predict, and so on and so forth.
It's, and that, that's not that that's anything. There's nothing wrong with that per se. But it leaves a lot of it. I think that what it does is it forces organizations into a bit of a, into a bit of a box in which they can't, they can't allow things to develop more organically or to emerge as they go through.
And so it, and it doesn't allow them to necessarily grow as they're going through, through a process. And of course, we need to be able to like, have things and outcomes that we care about and want to map to an extent. But the way that I develop like a, when I work with organizations is I usually develop an idea of what it looks like to be successful, and that's not necessarily tied to.
Like a metric, like increased participation by 27% or something like that nature. So it's a lot, the theory of change that I'll create oftentimes is a bit broader in focus. It of course has different strategies associated with it. So say an organization, one of those main strategies is gonna be education. So like, I'll often help organizations identify the big vision that will obviously go through and I, and talk about the mission and the core identity, like their values and beliefs and things like that, that underpin the work that they do.
And then it will start to boil down to like what are those broad strategies that they're trying to do in order to be able to get to that vision. So for instance, one of the organizations I'm working with right now, we have identified that there's two main strategies. One is Like a focus on the individuals that they are trying to help through the work that they do.
And then the other way is addressing systems level harm. So it's like really doing the on the ground work versus like, how do we fix this so that this systemic, these systemic issues aren't a problem as we, five years from now. And so underneath those, there's a couple of different programs that nestle underneath those.
And then, and part of the addressing systems, Level harm. Those programs are like education and advocacy as you can imagine. And then there's the more specific programmatic work towards dealing with the individual piece of that. So that gives 'em a lot of space, in order to be able to say where they want to go from here in order to.
To be able to create these kinds of change and they can use that theory of change as they move forward. It's, that's not necessarily tied to, a like three to five year strategic plan that could actually be like a much longer standing a , a tool for them to be able to use moving forward.
And. It's and then it's also paired with obviously much more specific kinds of goals and objectives and priorities that I would bring into, into the actual written plan itself. But it's that broader framework that allows them to really play within those bounds and to be able to have that flexibility moving forward.
So they're not, they're not super. Yeah, like backed into a corner when they have this like a super rigid plan in front of them or something like that. As you can tell, I don't write super rigid plans, probably. 
Carol: Yeah. And I appreciate the distinction between those different, those different things and I mean, even if you get into the nitty gritty with something like a logic model, I always want to.
Tell people or help, help them bring some context that the map is not the territory. A model does not, is just a model. It doesn't define reality. It can be helpful as a tool to help you have a conversation, to come to agreement around what are the assumptions that we're, we're embedding in this, what do we think is gonna happen?
How can we test that? But. Yeah, there's always a danger once it gets mapped out or in a plan that people get afraid to change it. And for me that's never the, the ultimate purpose of any of these kinds of processes, but it's more, I. Can we get stuff out of people's heads onto a page so that we can all look at it together?
Yeah, I'm thinking, I'm, I'm starting to work with an organization right now and it's exactly that. It's a relatively new organization. They've got, the founder has some great ideas about what they wanna do. They're doing stuff already, but they haven't had a chance to expand things.
And this. By doing one of these processes, theory of change, logic model, impact map, whatever you wanna call it. I think one of the biggest benefits will be to get a lot of the stuff that's in his head in other staff, staff, people's heads, maybe in board, if the board ends up being involved and get it out so that everybody can look at it and say, do we actually agree?
On this picture of what we're, what we're trying to do together. 
Erin: Yeah. And I think it's, I mean that's like so powerful to be able to do that and just to make sure that everybody's on the same page and it's like the cornerstone of doing strategic planning cuz you never wanna get super far into a process and then be like, oh, we're not all on the same page at all.
But it's also probably hard. And you, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this like, To get people sometimes to commit, especially especially a founder or especially organizations that are just super energized about things, to picking a path. Because a lot of the time, They wanna do everything.
And I'm like, we create a theory of change so that they understand that they, they got, they start to see like the, the through line between like the work that they're doing and the outcome and, and the the vision that they're trying to achieve and outcomes. But it also helps them to see things like, oh, we can't, if we do like a thousand different things, we can't actually be super effective at any of them.
Carol: Yeah, I literally said this yesterday. I was like, I have yet to meet a nonprofit staff, person, leader, board member, executive director, who did not have enough ideas. Yeah. Yep. There is always an abundance of ideas, different directions, different tactics, different strategies, all to move towards the same vision.
But what are the ones that you are gonna choose? What are the ones that you are really gonna deepen and get good at? What's within your core competencies and it's, it's hard to make those decisions, especially as a group, but I think that's, that's a part of what these, these kinds of processes can help with as well to, to set some priorities and refine that.
And I, I appreciated what you said about the theory of change. Also being also mapping the wider context that the organization is in, because the ones that I have seen have been a little bit in a vacuum. So I'd love for you to say a little bit more about what that looks like and the benefits of doing that.
Erin: Yeah. I am so grateful that you asked that question too, cuz I love talking about it. It's, I look at , I think that when. Again, that helps them to narrow some of their focus when we start to look at the broader picture and be like, well, what are, what is the lane that you're playing in this?
And what is, what is also the lane that your partners are playing in? Because it should likely be a little bit different than what they're playing in. And so I think I love the tagline for this podcast, like how not to become a martyr to the cause. Because I think that a lot of people look at it like, oh, we have to do everything.
We have to do everything under the sun in order to be able to like tackle X, Y, z, whatever, whatever their, their cause actually is. And it's, I think, can be really liberating for organizations to see that it's, it's not incumbent upon them to fix everything.  that they actually have partners who are gonna be doing similar work and in this, and in that are on a similar journey, but aren't necessarily that their work is complementary to, to theirs.
What I also think is super important about that part of things too, is I like to help organizations really understand that they're start to break up with this idea around, White supremacy culture and like how that gets like enacted within organizations, which is so much rooted in, oftentimes you see that kinda individualism, which can play out like within the internal culture of an organization or for the organization themselves too.
like, oh, we're on it, on our own. We're just doing it, we're just charging forth and we're by ourselves in this. And I help them to start to break up with that idea that they have to do it all by themselves. And that they are like the center of all of that. So it's, there's a couple of different reasons why I, why I help them see that bigger picture.
But a lot of it is, starting to shift this narrative around like any one organization is, is. Going to create the change that they actually do need collaboration in order to be able to bring about these things. And we're talking about wicked problems, right? Like we're these, or like, these are like things that nobody solves on their own.
And to be able to even try to say that they could, develops that hero complex that I think is, so detrimental within our sector because we don't want people out there just being like, like pomp, his assholes like thinking that, that like, they're the only reason why change create, like happens.
No, it actually does. It requires many, many different people working towards the same goal, coming at a, from a bunch of different angles and and we just, yeah, we don't want that to be. We wanna start to shift towards more collaboration and less of this individualism, is one of the things that I try to help organizations do.
Carol: Yeah. Helping them see how they can be complementary to the other organizations that are in the same space as them. Not competing for the same ground but, but working together to, to solve the problem. As you say, they're, they're. Most of these problems that organizations are working on are huge and complex.
And, and yeah, the hero is probably the positive version of Martyr. And both of them, I, I, I mean, from my point of view or, or from my experience, it's rare. and their exceptions, but it's rarely out of a sense of it's gotta be all mine. But there is this like, it's all on my shoulders feeling.
And it's like, no, it's not. I. You're one person, you're one organization. You're at one time in a whole movement of people, sector, what, whatever, term you want to use, that you're part of this larger ecosystem that's working towards that vision with you. And if you can see that, you can take a deep breath, relax a little bit, and focus on what you do best.
Hmm. 
Erin: Yeah, when I've done this work, cuz I've done theory of change obviously as part of like strategic planning processes and things like that when I've done this also with , like I've gone in and into like teach younger, students and like college students talking about things like how do we do, how do we start to shift our practices so that we can.
What did I call it before? It was like conscientious consulting, I think is how I talked about it. Like how do we shift our business practices, to be more, I don't know, probably inclusive jest, et cetera, like something of that nature. But , I think what I've, what I've heard from a lot of folks when they reach out to me, they're like, oh, I just wanna do what you do in the world, and how do we, how do I do this?
, and I'm like, okay, one. It's taken me a decade to get to this place. there's no, there's no quick fix, there's no silver bullet here to just kinda like do this work. And so much of what I've, how I've done this work is just so, like, it's just developed organically in a, in a way that's really unique to who I am, but it's, I think a lot of people are so, they have such an appetite to go out and, and be those kinds of change makers and they don't necessarily have.
They don't have the grounding yet to understand a lot of the things we just said, like that we don't do this, that, that it's, that we do, they don't realize that they can't do it on their own. They don't realize that they can't like that it's all focused on them.
So like, for instance, I've seen I've done a bunch of, I also judged a bunch of pitch competitions before. I don't know if you've done that before. It's super fun. But I just hear like these, these students who are just like coming at these things from a place where which they're so amazing, I should say that before I dive into this, but, but they're coming at it from such a narrow perspective of like, I'm gonna solve this problem, I'm gonna do it this way.
And they haven't necessarily thought about it from this broader perspective of like, you're going perhaps into like a community to try to solve this problem. Does that community even exist? Want you to solve this problem? Like, or is that really the solution? That's, 
Carol: Is that the problem that they want you to solve?
Right. Have you talked to them? Yeah. What are their perspectives? What are their priorities? Yeah. 
Erin: Yep. Exactly. So like part of like the theory of change for me too is just like helping them to, for like. Especially if we're, they're doing it on an individual level to kinda like to interrogate that a bit.
Like where, what are your motivations for trying to, to be quite unquote like a changemaker in the world? Like what is your motivation for trying to do this work and how do you get, and if it's really like once you've like tested it a little bit for yourself and like put it through the ringer and you come back to it and you're like, yep, this is still what I want to do.
, then how do you start to build around that so that it actually, so that it has some more teeth to it, so that it actually has so that it makes sense in the broader context of what you're trying to do. And is that, and have you really taken a closer look at what the community wants too?
That's, so those are some of the, the conversations I have with, I mean, with organizations, but also with individuals too, who are trying to go out there and figure out what their place is in the world. 
Carol: Yeah, and it could be, I've heard career advice framed in the, in the point of view of saying, don't think about what you wanna do, but think about what problem you wanna solve in the world.
And so that could be a starting point, but at the same time, it's, what does the community want? What does the community need? What, what are their priorities? And then who's already doing work that you. Want to do and how can you get on their bandwagon first before you create your own bandwagon?
Erin: Right, right. Because a lot of people come at something without really a depth of understanding. And I, I mean, and I'll say that, like for myself too, when I first started doing food systems consulting, I remember, I'd had training in that and I had been so excited to go out and like, Do something.
And I worked with food pantries and things like that, and I was like, okay, well I'm gonna help. Like of course I sound like such a douche bag in younger me,  what I mean? 
Carol: We'll forgive your younger self
Erin: Okay. Yeah. We'll forgive the younger me, but I was just like I was, I did my master's degree at a time when obesity was like the big thing and I was like, oh, well we've got to like help.
I have to help people who are food insecure eat better. And like nowadays I'm just like, they have to eat healthier. I'm gonna help them, access local food and things like that. And now I look back and I'm like, Oh, I just didn't understand the systems level issues that were at play here.
Like, it's not that people can't access good food or, or I mean, well, yes, they can't access good food for a lot of different reasons, but it's not because they can't do it for whatever X, Y, Z. It's not because they're making that choices or they don't choices don't want to 
Carol: do it, which I think is somehow at times how it's framed.
Erin: Exactly. It's like, oh, we actually have really. Bad policies in our, in, that are preventing people from being able to actually access food. We don't, people pay people living wages. We don't do X, Y, Z. And so it took me like a really long time to start to understand that like whenever I saw a problem on the surface, I.
 What do I mean? That there was a whole like iceberg below that of like reasons why that problem was presenting the way that it was, and that like, if I didn't start to understand the depth of it, I was not going to be able to like even start to make a, an impact like even the smallest impact or difference on that.
And I think, and so that's why I, I, I always. I've, I've started to really understand the complexity of those kinds of things much more in depth. And I help my clients do that, and I help young people start to do that too, because I'm like, we can solve like a surface level problem, but if we start solve that surface level problem, who's to say that that's not going to give rise to a bunch of other problems down the road because we're not actually getting at the root cause of anything.
Carol: Yeah. And I think that's where processes like mapping out a theory of change can, it basically helps you start mapping out that iceberg. Yeah. What are all the factors that aren't as obvious? And what are all the assumptions built in? What are the things that we're not, not seeing on the surface that could help really make a different or more impactful Strategy to, to address, to address those wider concerns.
And I, I mean, I feel like there's sometimes in the sector a little bit of a false dichotomy between, we're gonna help the person in their, their, their immediate need versus the longer term policy, systemic thing. And to me, we need to do both. It doesn't have to be an either or. Some people will be drawn to one, some people will be drawn to the other.
And, and both. move, move things forward. Yeah. And make, make things more positive for people. 
Erin: Yeah. Oh, I love those kinds of conversations we have with organizations though, like that depth of just starting to dive into it and starting to understand what is really like the thing here.
Like what are we trying to do? And I'm trying to think of a good example to share that wouldn't violate confidentiality at the moment, but like cuz I really, cuz I would love to be able to illustrate some of this, but. 
Carol: Yeah, cuz it can be, I think that's what keeps people away from these kinds of processes cuz it sounds so esoteric and it's like, wow, we've got, we've got immediate, urgent work to do.
Why would we wanna buy that? We're going through a process 
Erin: like this. Right, exactly. Like and kind. It's heady and it's just very, it can feel really abstract for people who like things to be a little bit more concrete. But I'll, like, I did a retreat with an organization and who works on it. Who does harm reduction work?
So, helping folks literally by, handing out clean syringes and things like that and does a whole lot of other things as well. But what it boiled down to as we were doing the retreat was that, One, we had to tackle stigma, in order to be able to like, to help, like the big picture is to reduce overdose deaths, right?
Like, and to give people everything that they need in order to live full, happy, meaningful lives ? And as we drill down more and more and more into that, it was like, oh, radical love. Is actually at the core of this. Mm-hmm.  What do I mean? Like we actually have to figure out how to amplify radical love for everyone?
And like, and I give myself goosebumps thinking about that. Like it's when you start to delve into that and it's, and of course there's like, there's like a gazillion more layers of which, that, that come as part of that framework, but , it's. Or how do I do it ? Part of it is like, how do we infuse that radical love into, into the work itself?
Because that's such, that is like a key to being able to actually move forward with things. And to create and to actually transform our society and to one where we really like, where people who do use drugs are actually, they are treated as whole human beings worthy of respect and deserving of love.
And so, for me, like I wanna get down to that level with my, with my organizations and like, so that we can start to say, now how do we operationalize that? How do we operationalize radical love? Because if we can start to figure out how to do that and to put that into place, then we will really be able to, to do unbelievable, amazing things.
And I don't think that there's a lot of them. Like you were saying before, like for a lot of people to try to get to that place, they're just like, what is she talking about?  What do I mean? Like what, what are you even talking about Erin? And some people just do not come along that journey with me always.
But once if they can, and if they do, if they can stick with it long enough, they'll be able to see something really, really powerful reflected in the final product. And they will have, just by having asked those questions of themselves, they are going to be a stronger organization for that.
Carol: Yeah, I mean, I can imagine how that. Could show up in so many different aspects of the organization, their culture, how they're treating each other day to day, all of that. If they're centering that, that, radical love and, and really putting that at the, at the center, then it ripples out in a, in lots of, lots of different ways.
Yeah. That's powerful. Yeah, for sure. Aspirational, definitely. So in previous episodes, I've asked a random icebreaker question at the end, and I am, I'm changing things up a little bit. Going forward and just one gonna ask each guest what permission slip would they give to nonprofit leaders, or what would they invite them to consider as they work to cultivate a healthy organizational culture?
So what would yours be? Either a permission slip or an invitation towards, I guess, that radical love that we're talking about. Yeah. 
Erin: I mean,
I would want them to have a permission slip, I guess, to take the time out to really do that work, especially with their staff, with their stakeholders, to really ask themselves those kinds of questions because I think that a lot of leaders. And, their staff for sure too, like to lose sight of the mission work in the day-to-day.
They go from task to task. They never pick their head up and get to look at the bigger picture, the, the, the real, the big vision that they're working towards. And so giving themselves an opportunity just to reconnect to that periodically, I think would be transformative. In so many different ways, and then figuring out how to infuse some of that magic, like into, into more of the day-to-day too.
So like how do you keep that, how do you continue to keep that the reason why everybody got into this work in the first place, like alive and front and center for people. I mean, if they can do that, that'll be amazing. 
Carol: Yeah, so they can keep that high from the retreat, the enthusiasm and bring it and figure out ways.
It can't, it can't just be a wish. You have to think about what are the different ways that you're actually going to keep bringing us back to our why. 
Erin: Yeah, exactly. 
Carol: So how can people find you and be 
Erin: in touch? Yeah, people can find me@allgoodstrategies.com and I also have my own podcast that you're gonna be on, Carol, I'm so excited, called Rise and Ruse Conversations for those who give a damn.
And folks can, probably the easiest way to find that is to just go to Instagram and type in at Rise and Ruse. And so just follow me. I would love to be able to Yeah, connect with anybody and if you go to my website, you can find my contact information and all that jazz too. 
Carol: All right. Well, thank you so much.
Thank you, Erin. I really appreciated the conversation. 
Erin: Thank you so much too. This was a really fun opportunity and yeah, and I hope that it'll be interesting for folks.
Carol: Thank you for listening to this episode. I really appreciate the time you spend with me and my guests. You can find out how to connect with Erin, her full bio, the full transcript of our conversation, as well as any links and resources mentioned during the show in the show notes at missionimpactpodcast.com/shownotes. I want to thank Isabelle Strauss-Riggs for her support in editing and production as well as Cindy Rivera Grazer of 100 Ninjas for her production support. 
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